To be really surprised that UK women were able to get maternity leave & pay, and abortion rights?

[SonicVersusGynaephobia]

I, of course, 100% think they should have them.

But women in the UK at the moment just seem so irrelevant. Women suffering seems to not matter to anyone in power.

Examples such as
-Still having a gender pay gap and equal pay issues.

-Trans Activism getting rid of all women-only spaces and services, many of which are needed for women's safety. Women not even being allowed to discuss this. Women who try being threatened with rape and murder, and no political party calling any of this out.

-Rape convictions. I mean holy fucking Christ, how awful is that Ulster Rugby rape trial that is going on at the moment? The way the victim is being treated is harrowing. The burden of proof the prosecution needs "guilty beyond all reasonable doubt", is just impossible in a 1:1 scenario, nevermind when there are 4 of them, and none of them even have to take the stand to give evidence in case they all trip each other up, because not one of their stories match

-Lenient sentences for men convicted of serious domestic violence.

-Obstetrics and Gynaecology care - women being made to give birth without pain relief, getting poor pain relief afterwards, and being made to have a vaginal birth when they really don't want to. Being ignored when in labour. Then the issues they need to deal with afterwards, incontinence, pain, prolapses, sexual disfunction, etc.

-Welfare cuts massively disproportionately affecting women. Poorer women. And therefore children.

-Pathetic Child Maintenance Service and the loopholes that allow men to not bother.

There are others. These are just the few bothering me this morning.

So truly, I cannot believe how successful feminists a few decades ago were at getting us the rights that many people are still so angry about us having (eg abortions). I'm amazed they were able to get enough traction to have their voices heard, and actually listened to, and laws implemented to protect women, in spite of so many men being so, so against it.

I feel it would never happen today. Despite women apparently having it better than ever. I'm completely in awe of how they managed to get us the rights they did. I feel so inadequate in comparison, that my voice for protecting women is so ineffectual, no matter how I try.

Snow, I never side that it was simple. I'm not an idiot. No, I don't want people locked up for life for rape on murder based on one person's say-so.

But we can't carry on like this.

A start would be making the defendant prove how he obtained consent, rather than being able to say "I presumed she was up for it", which is a current defence.

Also not accepting "I tripped and fell and landed with my penis in her vagina" as a defence which gets a Not Guilty verdict.

That would be a start.

Rape convictions have to be solid, we can't have innocent people going to jail. It's not as simple as you make out.

Neither should a woman be able to demand a CS just because they want one, that's something that should be for private treatment.

We will never have equality in the workplace and it's not down to taking maternity leave as that can be as long as the person wishes to as short as two weeks. It's more to do with work ethic, so many take time out, want to only do a token few hours etc.

As for women being poorer, that state is down to the person not gender. We all make our own life choices, where we live, if we have children, what hours we work. Don't have children, work part time or not at all etc if you want to have more money.

Child support should be mandatory by law by both parents after a split and harsh penalties if not. That's one thing that can and should be changed. Neither parent shouldn't be able to wash their hands financially of a child simply because of a split.

Or "well, she was up for it with someone else, so naturally that applies to me too. She can't consent to one man and not another".

Brexit will make things so much worse for women (and workers generally). Those who work for others and who voted for Brexit were like turkeys voting for Christmas. Just look at the kind of rights women and workers generally in the US have and this will give you an idea of where we're likely to end up.
Fancy 2 weeks' holiday a year, no right to maternity leave, and the right for your employer to dismiss you at will - no notice period and no right to claim unfair dismissal?

I have been thinking the same OP.

But am guilty of doing almost nothing ...

"It's more to do with work ethic"

women don't have as good a work ethic as men (!)

"Neither should a woman be able to demand a CS just because they want one"

women should not be allowed to make decisions around their own bodies. Previous traumatic birth? Previous section? History of sexual abuse? Nope you're not allowed to demand a section (note the language - not ASK - women apparently "demand" sections, the grabby, selfish things that they are.

I always find it interesting when women use language of this type.

The Husband Stitch.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/husband-stitch-episiotomy-misogyny-motherhood-pregnancy-surgery-stitch-sexism-childbirth-a8184346.html

A start would be making the defendant prove how he obtained consent, rather than being able to say "I presumed she was up for it", which is a current defence

How can anyone prove that? Do you have any objective evidence that any of your sexual experience were consensual? Unless you bring in a form to be signed by both parties before sex I can't see how that can work.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for the rape conviction rate to be far far higher, but the he said she said nature of most cases just does not fit with our system of justice.

"As for women being poorer, that state is down to the person not gender."

look at the stats around who bore the brunt of the recession financially
look at recent unequal pay stories in the news
look at the average pension pots of men and women (£75K for men £25K for women

Your solution for women is that if they want to be financially OK in a world designed for men, they need to stop having babies. Do you think that men will allow that?

Neither should a woman be able to demand a CS just because they want one, that's something that should be for private treatment.

I'd argue that if care for women in labour, and pain relief in labour, was better (the way it would be if it was a man in that much pain) then women would feel more supported, less fearful, and able to countenance having a vaginal birth.

I think the increase in women wanting a CS is, in part, because of the guarantee of pain relief before (and usually after), and because it is more predictable what's going to happen, so women feel a bit more in control. Rather than the very frightening unknowns of a vaginal birth going wrong, especially if you've been left on your own with no midwives with you.

I didn't realise it was men who were the driving force behind women having babies.

Clarissa - can I ask why you believe that leaving the EU would result in the loss of all those policies? Firstly the maternity leave is not based on EU law but any others that are, are already woven into UK law. No government in their right mind would actually unpick popular laws. Can you imagine the campaign slogans , 'vote for us and we will reduce annual leave for everyone'. Governments don't tend to do that! Those policies will stay as they are.

"Form to be signed"

Where are you gettign your info?

With many rapes that go unreported, unprosecuted, there is eviddence. With worboys, they were drugged.That would've shown up if they'd taken some blood I'd have thought.

Don't worry about "grey areas", we still need to get to grips with the really fucking obvious ones.

A big issue is what will be accepted as likely women will do. A man (poster on here's daughter hope she doesn't mind) got off because the court found it entirely believable that a 19 yo virgin would go and have anal sex with left her with injuries, in an alleyway with a man she met on the street.

Men in the news have got off becasue they "fell on her", because they didn't speak english and so didn't understand "No"... We have had men get let off on "no excuses" crimes ie sex with under 13, because the judge agrees that "she looks older" I mean what is the point of having these laws if there are still ways around them?

I don't think that any men have been prosecuted for paying for sex with a trafficked woman even though I believe that is a "no excuses" crime as well... Would be pleased if anyone knows different.

Yes, the use of the word demand for women wanting to make medical decisions is quite interesting.

But for those who don't think women should be able to choose a section, can you justify this? It's not necessarily more expensive, in case that's of interest.

I didn't realise it was men who were the driving force behind women having babies

Neither did I All this time I thought woman could be responsible for their own contraception and choice to abort or not.

Woman don't need to stop having babies if that's what they want. They just need to ensure their finances, not others, can afford the lifestyle choice. Having a child doesn't suddenly render a person incapable of work. For many, it's just used as an excuse though or the child used to keep a man or a band aid for a failing relationship.

Oh lol

Me: "Your solution for women is that if they want to be financially OK in a world designed for men, they need to stop having babies. Do you think that men will allow that?"

Snow: "I didn't realise it was men who were the driving force behind women having babies."

Are you having a laugh? You think that if all the women said right no more babies, the men would say OK?
You haven't noticed about the whole controlling us for milennia due to wanting to be sure they are the father, then?
And wanting "heirs"

You think men would be OK with that, OK lol

YANBU.

Another thing that really pisses me off is that abuse against women and girls on the basis of their sex is not classed as a hate crime nationally (Nottinghamshire police introduced it in their area). Not only are we subjected to abuse and harassment on the basis of our sex, often from a young age, it is not even officially recognised that this is going on (or not recognised that it matters).

Yes, it is amazing what brave, strong women of previous generations have achieved for us but we seem to now be seeing a massive push back from misogynistic men and as it becomes more acceptable and they get away with it more, they become even more blatant and even more vile.

For example, they started off with using language like 'cis' as a shorthand for 'women' and 'terf' as a shorthand for 'women who don't do as they are told' so they could say things like 'down with cis', 'smash the cis-tem' and 'punch a terf' and we knew what they meant but they could claim they were standing up for the oppressed.

Now they have been emboldened, they feel confident to be more direct and there seems to be more of the traditional misogynistic language e.g. 'bitch and 'cnt' e.g. Labour men referred to Jennifer James as the 'head cnt' and women within the party who don't agree with them as 'c*nts' and it isn't challenged (apart from by the women) as women have been dehumanised and this kind of stuff has become so normalised.

I don't think it is just the Labour Party that has a misogyny problem but maybe in the past lefty men felt they couldn't be openly misogynistic and have had to contain all their hatred of women but now they have been given a free pass and are really letting rip.

It is eye-opening. I always considered myself a feminist and that, yes, there were problems with sexism and misogyny but I had absolutely no idea of the extent of it until I started seeing all this stuff.

We should review our legal definition of "rape" for a start. It shouldn't be exclusively about penetration with a penis.

But women are discriminated against at work and elsewhere due to their perceived reproductive capacity.

For your cunning plan to work, all women need to stop having babies.

How can anyone prove that? Do you have any objective evidence that any of your sexual experience were consensual? Unless you bring in a form to be signed by both parties before sex I can't see how that can work.

Dont be ridiculous. I'm not going to engage with you any further if you're going to take the MRA stance of "signing a consent form".

Ched Evans, by his OWN TESTIMONY, stole a key and snuck into a hotel room where he knew his friend was having sex with a woman he'd never met or spoken to. Ched said he didn't speak to her in the hotel room either, just asked his friend if he could have a go and then had sex with a drunk, ill, stranger.

I don't think it's asking too much for the starting position in a trial to be "that's an unusual sequence of events... What action did you take to ensure she was consenting, and able to make the choice to consent, before you stuck your penis in her". Rather than the assumption that she was up for it with anyone who broke into the hotel room, unless she ran away screaming.

unpick popular laws

What makes you think maternity leave and pay are popular laws, in a country where the political and business circles are run by men?

They are very unpopular laws, certainly amongst SMEs.

Totally agree op. Very thoughtful posting

I was about to say that NICE guidelines are that maternal request is a legitimate reason for a C Section, but I see someone's already made that point.

One interesting thing that came out of the NICE research that led to the current guidelines was (remember NICE are in part about value for money) that once you factor in the down-stream costs of pelvic floor repair surgery, prolapse repair, treatment for incontinence etc. etc., vaginal births are not actually cheaper than C Sections.

I'm not even going to bother engaging with the MRA troll.

I’m always amazed that women having caeserians are often discharged within 24 hours with only paracetamol for analgesia! That would’nt happen to men after major abdominal surgery.

Women’s health issues are often put down to anxiety or depression. PMT, endometriosis etc

Woman don't need to stop having babies if that's what they want. They just need to ensure their finances, not others, can afford the lifestyle choice.

What about the father's finances?

Having a child doesn't suddenly render a person incapable of work.

No, but given that a women needs to earn over £30k a year in order to have a net enough to pay for two children in full-time childcare, and that's before transport costs, lunches, work clothes, etc. And the average salary is £25k. And women earn less for the same work. And nurseries aren't open long enough hours to accommodate travel. How do you propose all women square that circle?

For many, it's just used as an excuse though or the child used to keep a man or a band aid for a failing relationship.

Yeah, fucking scheming women, eh.

You seem pretty dim.