To be really surprised that UK women were able to get maternity leave & pay, and abortion rights?

[SonicVersusGynaephobia]

I, of course, 100% think they should have them.

But women in the UK at the moment just seem so irrelevant. Women suffering seems to not matter to anyone in power.

Examples such as
-Still having a gender pay gap and equal pay issues.

-Trans Activism getting rid of all women-only spaces and services, many of which are needed for women's safety. Women not even being allowed to discuss this. Women who try being threatened with rape and murder, and no political party calling any of this out.

-Rape convictions. I mean holy fucking Christ, how awful is that Ulster Rugby rape trial that is going on at the moment? The way the victim is being treated is harrowing. The burden of proof the prosecution needs "guilty beyond all reasonable doubt", is just impossible in a 1:1 scenario, nevermind when there are 4 of them, and none of them even have to take the stand to give evidence in case they all trip each other up, because not one of their stories match

-Lenient sentences for men convicted of serious domestic violence.

-Obstetrics and Gynaecology care - women being made to give birth without pain relief, getting poor pain relief afterwards, and being made to have a vaginal birth when they really don't want to. Being ignored when in labour. Then the issues they need to deal with afterwards, incontinence, pain, prolapses, sexual disfunction, etc.

-Welfare cuts massively disproportionately affecting women. Poorer women. And therefore children.

-Pathetic Child Maintenance Service and the loopholes that allow men to not bother.

There are others. These are just the few bothering me this morning.

So truly, I cannot believe how successful feminists a few decades ago were at getting us the rights that many people are still so angry about us having (eg abortions). I'm amazed they were able to get enough traction to have their voices heard, and actually listened to, and laws implemented to protect women, in spite of so many men being so, so against it.

I feel it would never happen today. Despite women apparently having it better than ever. I'm completely in awe of how they managed to get us the rights they did. I feel so inadequate in comparison, that my voice for protecting women is so ineffectual, no matter how I try.

Incorrect @FenellaMaxwellsPony

I agree wholeheartedly OP. Women are the bottom of the pile again and again.

however just wanting to not have a vaginal delivery is not a good reason of course it is. Even if we allowed every woman who requested a c section to have one we’d still not go much above 30% as a rate. Bodily autonomy is VITAL- do you honestly think men would be pressured into giving birth vaginaly after a damaging and traumatic first birth with a blithe ‘it’ll be fine’? Of course they bloody wouldn’t. Neither would they be expected to have only fucking paracetamol and to have to provide their own in hospital because the nurses ‘forgot.’ Men after major surgery get dosed as needed.

Discrimination against women during pregnancy at work is rife. My first I had a stellar review in the Monday, told them I was pregnant midweek and had my reporting lines removed and was actively sidelined by the end of the week.

The way women are the bottom of the pile is disgraceful. Our rights are subjugated to avoid offending men - religious men, men who demand ‘access’ to female bodies etc etc.

I’m fucking sick of it. We are 51% percent of the electorate. Give me someone fucking decent to vote for.

it's not down to taking maternity leave as that can be as long as the person wishes to as short as two weeks. It's more to do with work ethic

Not everyone is physically able to return to work two weeks after giving birth. I was still bleeding 10 weeks later, and felt like my insides were going to drop out.

Yet, had I been a man who was ill, I'd have been paid my full salary for 6 months, then half my salary for the next 6 months. But because my illness was related to childbirth, I got 6 weeks full pay.

Fair?

Completely agree with you re rape, dv & welfare cuts. 87% I think of austerity cuts hit women, and 80% of women are mothers, so howmany children are affected as well? It's appalling. As for the conviction rate for rape & DV, it infuriates me when the DPP says 73% of charges end in conviction, that's so disingenuous. The conviction rate from reporting DV is still outrageously low, I think still around 5%. So many cases are closed by the police & CPS. Often after a sloppy investigation where evidence isn't gathered and the woman not taken seriously.

I really can't think of many female MP's, or females in positions of power that fight for grassroots women. Lady Hale was on the panel of judges that ruled in favour of the Worboys victims who sued the Met, which is great. But how many more really fight for our rights once they reach the top?

OP, your voice isn't ineffectual. We have to keep chipping away at the injustices we face, and do whatever we can, however small it seems. We have more power in numbers!

Yet, had I been a man who was ill, I'd have been paid my full salary for 6 months, then half my salary for the next 6 months. But because my illness was related to childbirth, I got 6 weeks full pay

Don't be absurd, the man would have been on maternity leave too not sick pay . You could have ended your maternity after two weeks then gone sick if you wanted to be equal to a man being off sick.

obviously if there is a medical need then you should be able to have one, however just wanting to not have a vaginal delivery is not a good reason

Yes it is. It's the very best reason.

I agree about the gynae stuff, when I was in labour with dd2 there were no midwives available. I was left on my own in a room screaming in pain, no checks were done, when a midwife finally arrived I asked for some pain relief. She checked me and said it was too late, and I would just have to have a baby now. Dd was born 12 minutes later without even a whiff of gas and air.

snibble

Have you been completely blind to women getting broody then? Have a look round the TTC boards to see the number of women who are desperate to get themselves pregnant. The number of "I really want a baby but DH isn't keen" or "I'm pregnant and DP doesn't want it" or even "DH has left and isn't arsed to be a dad any more" threads. Hardly reeks of men being the ones desperate to procreate in this day and age.

Roobie - if Brexit goes ahead and the Tories stay in power, I don't for one second believe that employment rights will stay as they are. The right wingers in the Tory party have for years been talking about getting rid of basic rights, including the crucial right to claim unfair dismissal. They are now far more powerful within the Tory party, and the EU law which provides back-up protection, particularly in the realm of discrimination law (including sex and pregnancy discrimination) and working hours/holiday etc, will have gone.
We are heading towards a society where workers are paid less and have few rights. And in fact if we are to compete against other countries to survive outside of the EU a key part of that will be workers being paid less, working longer hours, having fewer rights. I am sure that this is a key part of the plan.

'I’m always amazed that women having caeserians are often discharged within 24 hours with only paracetamol for analgesia! That would’nt happen to men after major abdominal surgery.

Women’s health issues are often put down to anxiety or depression. PMT, endometriosis etc'

ITV released a report that fewer women are taking up 'breast cancer screening' which is all mamograms. The female doctor had a scolding tone, 'It may be uncomfortable but you womenz are being stoopid'. NO acknowledgement that the procedure can cause extreme physical pain to some. And the comments were unbelievable: legions of men chiming in with 'But what about de menz! We have prostate cancer!' Yet prostate cancer screening tools have come along in leaps and bounds! They get a blood test. We still get our breasts squashed, HARD, between metal plates and told to relax, put up and shut up. Where's our blood test?

Women die far more often than men from heart attack, the silly gals are just having indigestion, stress, period troubles.

'You seem pretty dim.'

She's just your garden variety misogynist fascist.

clarissa yup. This is why brexit is happening.

The post war years of increasing rights will be seen as a blip. We are heading back to a form of industrial feudalism.

Don't be absurd, the man would have been on maternity leave too not sick pay hmm. You could have ended your maternity after two weeks then gone sick if you wanted to be equal to a man being off sick.

What on earth are you talking about.

A man, who is ill, is on sick pay. A man who is ill as an indirect result of his partner having a baby (eg stress, depression, unable to sleep and so very run down, etc) is still put on sick pay. Which for many employers is full pay.

A woman who is ill because of childbirth, even if indirectly, still has to stay on maternity leave, and thus maternity pay. Not sick pay, even though she's sick.

I couldn't go back after 2 weeks and then say I was sick, as you have to give 8 weeks notice of your return. So it's not an option.

You have clearly either no idea what you're talking about, or you are unable to think critically about topics outside your own very narrow experience.

I have had 5 kids and am a nurse. By baby number 5 I asked for an epidural just really as a joke against myself with dh.

Asked for one with every labour and never got one

"All this time I thought woman could be responsible for their own contraception and choice to abort or not."

Abortion is not widely avaiable in NI, which is part of UK.

There was the recent thing about Boots charging more than the price for MAP to discourage women from taking it..!

Recent thread where a woman was turned away from a phramacy because of religious beliefs of the chemist (maybe there was another one nearby... not the point). This is something that seems to be happening more.

That's before you even look at the rest of the world.... This is about the UK though, ^^ are UK.

Sheesh what a pandoras box

I’m curious about where you are writing from as many of these are global issues not limited to the uk.

Also I have never heard of anyone being made to give birth without pain relief. Do have a reference to the source of that info?

Loving this idea that men have no desire for children whatsoever, it's women who want them, so women should get what they deserve if they have them, even if what they deserve is poverrty which obviosuly impacts on the children as well - OUR next generation - OUR society, what has happened to class analysis, our understanding of poeple as a social animal? We each stand entirely alone. How bleak!

"Also I have never heard of anyone being made to give birth without pain relief. Do have a reference to the source of that info?"

Loads of women on this thread for a start?

Oh sorry, women saying stuff has happened to them isn't "proper" evidence is it

Where I work any woman discharged after a section has 24hrs worth of morphine syrup plus strict instructions to alternate paracetamol and ibuprofen to maximum daily intake around the clock as background pain prevention.

The husband stitch confuses me completely, I suture vaginas and it’s a pleated, unbelievably stretchy structure, I can’t make it tighter by sewing together a single tear in the surface, and at the entrance I am completely focused on matching up the skin exactly how it was before. My ‘work’ is then likely to be examined by several colleagues during the healing process so I would be quickly spotted if I had done anything else!

And regarding pain relief in labour, unfortunately all the options have limitations and side effects, there’s currently no perfect solution. I do feel lucky to work somewhere with the most mobility preserving epidural administration method and certainly don’t restrict access ideologically.

"I’m fucking sick of it. We are 51% percent of the electorate. Give me someone fucking decent to vote for."

This.

The WEP turned out to be piss poor.

Being forced to start maternity leave early if you have a pregnancy related illness makes me so angry though. Especially as working in the nhs these conditions are often as a result of not having had reasonable adjustments made.

There was a proposal to change that I think, xennialish.

I’m curious about where you are writing from as many of these are global issues not limited to the uk.

I am writing from the UK. I know they are issues elsewhere. I know some places are much be, and some are much worse. I am, today, talking about the UK. HTH.

Also I have never heard of anyone being made to give birth without pain relief. Do have a reference to the source of that info?

Are you trying to claim it doesn't happen? Despite the number of women on here telling you that it happened to them?

My local hospital doesn't advertise that lots of women won't get any pain relief. It says they can have some if they want or need it.

Except, when the woman says she needs it, she's frequently told she doesn't. Or she can't have any yet. Or they're too busy. Or the anaesthnetist is not available. Or we can only give you that down in the Labour ward, and there aren't any free yet. Or it's too late now, sorry.

Obstetrics and Gynaecology care - women being made to give birth without pain relief, getting poor pain relief afterwards, and being made to have a vaginal birth when they really don't want to. Being ignored when in labour. Then the issues they need to deal with afterwards, incontinence, pain, prolapses, sexual disfunction, etc

I’ve had different experiences in different pregnancies. I think sometimes it comes down to individual staff members as much as anything else. Sadly the NHS is underfunded and struggling, but sometimes the level of care is absolutely amazing.