To be really surprised that UK women were able to get maternity leave & pay, and abortion rights?

[SonicVersusGynaephobia]

I, of course, 100% think they should have them.

But women in the UK at the moment just seem so irrelevant. Women suffering seems to not matter to anyone in power.

Examples such as
-Still having a gender pay gap and equal pay issues.

-Trans Activism getting rid of all women-only spaces and services, many of which are needed for women's safety. Women not even being allowed to discuss this. Women who try being threatened with rape and murder, and no political party calling any of this out.

-Rape convictions. I mean holy fucking Christ, how awful is that Ulster Rugby rape trial that is going on at the moment? The way the victim is being treated is harrowing. The burden of proof the prosecution needs "guilty beyond all reasonable doubt", is just impossible in a 1:1 scenario, nevermind when there are 4 of them, and none of them even have to take the stand to give evidence in case they all trip each other up, because not one of their stories match

-Lenient sentences for men convicted of serious domestic violence.

-Obstetrics and Gynaecology care - women being made to give birth without pain relief, getting poor pain relief afterwards, and being made to have a vaginal birth when they really don't want to. Being ignored when in labour. Then the issues they need to deal with afterwards, incontinence, pain, prolapses, sexual disfunction, etc.

-Welfare cuts massively disproportionately affecting women. Poorer women. And therefore children.

-Pathetic Child Maintenance Service and the loopholes that allow men to not bother.

There are others. These are just the few bothering me this morning.

So truly, I cannot believe how successful feminists a few decades ago were at getting us the rights that many people are still so angry about us having (eg abortions). I'm amazed they were able to get enough traction to have their voices heard, and actually listened to, and laws implemented to protect women, in spite of so many men being so, so against it.

I feel it would never happen today. Despite women apparently having it better than ever. I'm completely in awe of how they managed to get us the rights they did. I feel so inadequate in comparison, that my voice for protecting women is so ineffectual, no matter how I try.

I didn't even get gas and air.

I was induced and was in a lot of pain, really quite distressed, first pain relief was spinal block (or at least the local before they did that) and that was not administered as pain relief but in order to perform the section.

Unless the idea is that spinal block / epidural for sections is simply "pain relief"? I wouldn't be surprised, some of the posters on here!

Re-reading that quote, focus seems to have gone on birth, more than the aftermath.

I think this is the case generally - women's issues post birth are treated very much as to be expected - just get on with it.

Like the women with the vaginal mesh who found vaginal sex impossible due to pain and the doctor who told the working group they could just have anal instead.

Where I work any woman discharged after a section has 24hrs worth of morphine syrup plus strict instructions to alternate paracetamol and ibuprofen to maximum daily intake around the clock as background pain prevention.

I had a section at 12pm and was told at 5pm that I could "get myself away" by 7am. I said I'd be staying a bit longer, thanks very much. Next day I was in so much pain I needed Oramorph as could not even stand up straight, nurse made me prove it before handing me the cup. I told them that this was not a normal amount of pain and was told pain after a section is normal. I know, I said, but not this much pain. DD wouldn't feed. I had to tell the nurse not to touch me after she opened my gown without permission, grabbed my breast and attempted to push DD into it. Two hours after being given the Oramorph and despite DD not feeding I was discharged home with just paracetamol. A few days later I was ambulanced back with sepsis and a floppy, yellow baby who in just five days had dropped in weight from 8lb14oz to 7lb 4oz. Turns out the pain I'd had was my body trying desperately to expel retained tissue that hadn't been removed during the section. Earlier that day if reported to the MW that I felt unwell, I couldn't get warm, felt sick, shivering, aversion to liquids, sense of doom (I very matter of fact told DH I was dying and told him where to find my life insurance documents as he was going to need them) and had started vomiting bile. MW told me, without examining me, it was probably a bug and to keep my fluids up.

I had HG during the pregnancy, vomiting from four days before my period was even due. My GP refused to prescribe me anything even though it was affecting my function to the point that I had to lie very still and very silent on the sofa because even movement and noise triggered the vomiting. She said it's a normal part of pregnancy and I should soldier on, it'll pass,you're used to it by now (DC4). DH went to that exact same GP not even a week later as he had nausea and was given medication for it because "it's grim feeling sick all of the time".

When we had DC3, DH asked for the snip and was told I should go on the pill because it's "better" than the snip. I tried Cerezette and it turned me evil, full on evil - mood swings, vicious temper, crying jags, general "could not give two tin shits" attitude, spotty, bloated. Went back to GP and said it's not working "you need to persist unless you want to get pregnant".

So yeah. Some absolutely top notch women's health care going on in this country.

Let's not even talk about the treatment from a previous employer when I returned to work after having a baby.

I think sometimes it comes down to individual staff members as much as anything else. Sadly the NHS is underfunded and struggling, but sometimes the level of care is absolutely amazing.

Oh I know. I had some of the worst care (as in none) for the 3 hours I was in labour. Despite telling my midwife, and going and finding her in corridors, she completely ignored me and left me alone, with no pain relief.

However, once (another) midwife heard what I was saying to shit midwife, she reacted really quickly, and I had a full emergency team of 7 people there in minutes, baby out in 10 minutes (too late for the crash section they initially said they were going to do), and then then they stayed for another few hours fixing us both. And every single one of those doctors and MWs were brilliant. So I completely agree that sometimes the NHS is amazing.

But sometimes it's shit, and sometimes it's the orchestrator of its own misfortune. I saw both sides in one birth.

But that's just anecdata. Nobody ever has to give birth without pain relief in the UK.

To those that say obsetrics/ gynae if funded more. Remember postnatal wards have double the number of patients ( ie mother and baby) in comparison to any other ward. It’s the only ward where you are not served breakfast. You are expected to get up and get it yourself. It is the only ward where you are expected to get up and care for another human being whilst recovering from a major op. In what other ward would you be checked out after 24 hours after receiving major abdominal surgery?

Loving this idea that men have no desire for children whatsoever, it's women who want them, so women should get what they deserve if they have them, even if what they deserve is poverrty

Let's not forget women in abusive relationships who often have no choice over how many children they have when pregnancy is used as a means of control.

I would just point out that women are strongly encouraged to chose a birth center, which are entirely staffed by midwives - at least in my area, so there is NO option of getting an epidural there

Isn't that the consequence of past lobbying by women that birth should be demidicalised and midwife led?

THats horrific bear frills.

I’m not reading in disbelief, just human nature I suppose to want to defend/ reassure.

When I was induced (back to back baby), it took several hours for the MW to grudgingly provide me with 2 paracetamol. The epidural I requested never did materialise.

When I had a CS, I was discharged 24hrs later with no pain relief whatsoever.

In my experience women are not taken seriously when they say that they are in pain.

You don't think it has anything to do with perceived cost lass?

@hibbledibble well that's great, but I've been told by three different doctors in two different health board areas that I would not be able to choose to have a cesarian. It's one of the reasons I'm sticking with the one DC as I am not willing to risk having an induction again.

Ulster Rugby Case is not black and white. Agree her treatment has been awful but her story not matching up. Defense starts next week..........watch this space

Clarissa - can I ask why you believe that leaving the EU would result in the loss of all those policies? Firstly the maternity leave is not based on EU law but any others that are, are already woven into UK law. No government in their right mind would actually unpick popular laws. Can you imagine the campaign slogans , 'vote for us and we will reduce annual leave for everyone'. Governments don't tend to do that! Those policies will stay as they are

I was and still am a fervent remainer but claims that leaving the EU will be the of civilisation as we know it and the ending of rights are just nonsense.

As for women being poorer, that state is down to the person not gender. We all make our own life choices, where we live, if we have children, what hours we work. Don't have children, work part time or not at all etc if you want to have more money.

Are you really that foolish that you think all women have the same opportunity to make the life they want for themselves?

Have you no idea of the vicious circle of poverty? So, SO ignorant.

Induction is one of the things it’s relatively easy to avoid @mirime. Not being glib and I appreciate a confirmed section date would be better and should be achievable but induction involves exams, drugs, procedures etc that all need consent. If you decline them and induction has been recommended, your obstetric team has little choice but to section you. This happens reasonably often half way through a lengthy induction (that a woman withdraws consent for further exams or drugs or rupture if membranes) and the advice I gave my sister was to politely decline any exams if pressured into induction.

You don't think it has anything to do with perceived cost lass?

May well be but I also think it is a consequences of the anti- medicalisation push by groups like the NCT peddling the idea that childbirth is a natural human function, no need for (male) doctors to get involved when you have lovely (female) midwives.

An example of be careful what you wish for.

I was 20 when I had my first. I went to a empty birthing centre in sheer agony to wait 20 minutes to be told at 4cm that my blood pressure was too high to admit me (I had just had a very stressful car journey and was stressed waiting in the reception). I told them I couldn’t leave and really needed some gas and air. They stuck me in a triage room with the gas and air and left me to it, I didn’t know they were phoning around hospitals until I was in very established labour and informed that there was no beds in any hospitals near by so was stuck there. My blood pressure was still high so they STILL wouldn’t admit me into one of their two proper birthing suites. I was so stressed and feel that had they let me in one of those rooms my bloody pressure would have reduced. I was left alone until it came to pushing time and was even left alone for the majority of the pushing as by this point another woman was in the room next door. There was still one empty birthing suite. Our babies happened to crown at the same time and the midwives were running from room to room. After I was told to shower, they weighed and dressed baby and left me to it until the next morning (about 10 hours later) when I was transferred to the post natal ward. I wasn’t even offered any tea or toast.

It was completely ridiculous and I had my subsequent babies at home.

Laughing my tits off at the idea that mothers haven’t/aren’t denied pain relief during childbirth. I’ve always suspected that childbirth pain wasn’t/isn’t taken seriously - that a woman is going to give birth with or without pain relief and guess which is cheaper. And let’s face it there’s been study after study that proves that a woman in pain isn’t taken as seriously as a man in pain.

Don’t even get me started on the Ulster rape case.

Also was told that internal examinations were essential throughout despite labor clearly establishing and would even perform them throughout a contraction. The woman doing them must have thought I was a cow with how forcefully she was doing them. For my next birth I refused them but the midwife asked and said she would be very gentle and I barely felt it. It was UCH London if anyone else had any similar experience there.

@Bearfrills I wasn't as sick as you but nausea started the day after my period was due, by eight weeks I was being sick daily, walking made me retch and dry heave and water brought on instant vomiting and any liquids were problematic. Went to see GP, she told me there was nothing they could do unless I was actually dehydrated, she implied anti nausea drugs would be bad for the baby and told me to go away and try harder to drink.

Because of that for over two months I pretty much lived on melon and an orange for breakfast, small amount of chicken stew for lunch with two mouthfuls of icy cold apple juice, and whatever I could keep down in the evening, which was not much as I was usually sick. There would be the I'd day when I could eat or drink better and I'd get excited, but the next day it would be back to the hellish constant thinking and weighing up when I could risk trying to eat or drink.

Talked to the midwife about it after she noted how much weight I'd lost, she just looked confused like she'd never heard of sometime being so sick while pregnant. I'm pretty sure I had HG at the 'milder' end. It's another reason I'm not keen on having a second DC.

Let's not forget women in abusive relationships who often have no choice over how many children they have when pregnancy is used as a means of control.

And certain religions (with male leaders) that don’t condone the use of contraceptives.

I had a really straightforward birth, and I'm generally pretty good with pain. But in the 40 mins before I gave birth to my DD I politely and quietly and repeatedly asked for pain relief because I was no longer managing the pain myself and was politely refused, without any kind of examination, on the basis that if I had it now it wouldn't be effective when I 'actually needed it'.

Eventually I asked if they could at least run the birthing pool so I could try and get some relief that way, which they started to do and said they would quickly examine me before I got in. DD was born before the pool was even half full.

I was the only woman to give birth at that midwife led unit that day. I was the only labouring woman on the whole unit the entire time I was there. Despite being a first time mother I was pretty much ignored until I was actually crowning. My pain which I had managed well myself for the first 3 hours I was there was ignored when it got unmanageable.

That's what happened to me in a straightforward birth on a quiet day, on a fully staffed midwife led unit. I hate to think what it would have been like with any complications or on a busy day.

It wasn't traumatic, I'm not mentally scarred from it and at the time I was in too much pain to actually give a shit that they were talking to me like a child rather than a 30 something year old woman who knew her own body, but it all just feels a bit unpleasant and most importantly unnecessary.

My brother broke his leg playing football a few weeks later and was on some pretty hefty painkillers from within minutes of the ambulance arriving.

'Where I work any woman discharged after a section has 24hrs worth of morphine syrup plus strict instructions to alternate paracetamol and ibuprofen to maximum daily intake around the clock as background pain prevention. '

I gave birth in two different hospitals and in both were women moaning and crying in agony after CS being fobbed off with a couple of fucking paracetamol tablets. I had hella afterbirth pains after DD2 and was offered nothing, so when I went in to have DS I brought my own paracetamol and ibuprofen, given no one ever answered the buzzers, anyhow.

@Xennialish easy to say that when you're not in the middle of it though. The woman opposite me was being induced as well, first attempt failed and she was begging for a cesarian and was refused it as they insisted they had to try a second round before they would do a cesarian - so another two-three days of pessaries and gel and pain.

My risk of intervention is not exactly going down as I'm 40 now, I had pre-eclampsia and would be at increased risk of having it again. I do not want to be in the situation of having to fight my corner at what is a frightening enough time anyway.

I also have experience of having a C section and being denied pain relief afterwards. I was given a couple of paracetamol. And some peppermint water, because they were adamant that the searing agony of my cut apart and stitched together insides was just me being silly and what I had was a bit of trapped wind . The 24 hours post C section pain was unlike anything I have ever experienced. Worse than my previous c section, worse than 36 hours of labour, worse than torn ligaments, worse than gallstones. It is utterly inhuman to cut someone open and tug their insides about and then deny them pain relief. I have never ever heard of a man having abdominal surgery, then being refused pain relief and forced to look after both themselves and another human being as soon as the spinal block wears off.