I don't know how I feel about abortion anymore

[sirlee66]

I've always been very pro-choice. A woman's body. A woman's right to choose.

I'm currently 34 weeks pregnant with my first and now I think my thoughts are changing.

I believe the cut off is 24 weeks? There was a lovely lady on here the other day whose waters broke and she gave birth to a baby girl at 25 weeks! If a baby can survive that early... It just seems...wrong!

Maybe the cut off could be lowered. I started feeling flutters at about 15 weeks so maybe before then.

I don't know what the answer is. I still feel really strongly that ultimately, the mother should decide but I just can't get past babies surviving outside the womb at the same age as a baby that could be aborted.

Maybe it's just pregnancy hormones. I also can't stop think about the poor women who have to make that decision. It must be so awful and I just want to give them a big hug.

I guess my question is, AIBU to not really know how I feel about it?

tinkywinky2018 people will make their own choices from the information available. If the state position is that these babies are better off dead, if every doctor says your baby will be a burden, your baby will have a life of pain and misery, we won't intervene, we won't operate on the same conditions we would operate on in other children, if its clear you will get no ongoing support, if they're little evidence otherwise and lots of pressure then women can't make the same reasoned decision they would without that propaganda and the state is acting as though those conditions should be exterminated. I don't believe women in Iceland have access to the same support and guidance and opportunity women in the UK have to continue with a pregnancy for a child they might want. Don't underestimate the power of the professional view.

People with conditions are not... differences to be celebrated and welcomed
Why would any wanted baby not be a baby to be welcomed and celebrated? It isn't the same as celebrating that they have been born with that condition but it does recognise that those children can have lives of love and laughter, that their families can gain from having them in their life. There's no reason a child with 47 or 48 chromosomes has any less right to life than a child with 46. Iceland seems to disagree

My SIL had an abortion at 22 weeks. She had no reason other than “she didn’t want it”. She has also had abortions at 18 weeks and 12 weeks. Again because “she didn’t want it” each time. It feels like she uses abortion as contraception because the pill will “bring her out in spots” and she “doesn’t like condoms”

"Not wanting it" is exactly the point of having an abortion. And if she is as feckless as you seem to think, isn't it for the best that she didn't have the babies?

Yanbu to have an opinion on your own personal choices. Yabu to have an opinion on others

Of course women who have terminated before are more likely to terminate again - because women who have terminated are likely to be somewhere on the scale from believing termination is an unfortunate necessity in certain situations to being perfectly comfortable with it. Somebody who is completely against abortion ever is not likely to have one in the first place, let alone have a second. Also, there will be statistical cluster around women who have genetic predisposition to certain conditions running in their/their husband's families. Sometimes the chances of passing on a condition are as high as 50%. That means somebody who would terminate for that condition with those odds is likely to terminate 50% of their pregnancies.

Ive not rtft (in the 3 years I’ve been going through this I’ve learned not to)

I had a termination at 22 weeks. My dd2 had trisomy 18, which is a lethal diagnosis. We were told she would probably not survive labour but if she did she would die from cardiac arrest or because she had such major parts of her brain missing she would ‘forget’ to breath and suffocate. It is very emotional to describe but deep down, as much as I wish I’d got to meet my daughter, I know we made the right choice for her.

I have heard lots of ‘terminations after x weeks is murder’ comments (unsurprisingly all from behind a screen) and a good few pro life comments about ‘giving baby’s a chance’ etc. Sadly I’ve actually got used to it and grown a thickish skin about it.

Anyway, when I was struggling with it all a very helpful poster posted the stated for post 20 week terminations. They are so, very, uncommon with a really high percentage being terminations for medical reasons. The other reasons where babies who were conceived from rape and the mother was either in denial or didn’t realise she was pregnant and similarly very young teenagers who either didn’t realise or were in denial about being pregnant.

As someone who has had a post 21 week termination (the procedure is significantly different post 21 weeks, I won’t go into details, they are upsetting) it is by no means an easy option or an option that someone would go through if they genuinely thought they had another option.

Post 20 week terminations/abortion (hate that term) are very difficult to think about and discuss but I think the stats behaving how many actually happen is important.

@Penggwyn exactly. If they choose to have the child despite then they should bare the responsibility of their choice.

@Susan then in that case you would know full well that it is quite rare, in Britain, for new grounds for claims in tort to arise. The courts tend to err on the side of the bare minimum. It's a bit alarmist to suggest that innocent women would get caught up in this. There is ample opportunity to seek an abortion if you cannot adequately and reasonably avoid harming the child, if you allow a child to be born despite knowingly harming them then that is on you and you should be held accountable.

I don't like the idea of abortions beyond 12 weeks especially when there are so many people desperate to have children - it would seem better to have more babies to put up for adoption
Well, dont have one. Its not up to fertile women to play incubator for infertile women. Plus there are many kids who need adopting now, looking to adopt dont mean your owed a newborn

UserSnoozer
The legal limit is far to late in pregnancy and considering the child can survive, having it aborted that late with all the gruesome details attached, should be classed as murder imo as that's a child who could survive that was to be blunt, killed

Get ducked
You have no idea of the circumstances some women find themselves in. A woman has every single right to put her life, body and wellbeing first

I became more staunchly pro choice after having my first DC, not less. I was ill one way or another the entire nine months, and then had a difficult birth. I wanted my baby but it was still the worst nine months of my life. If I hadn't wanted to be pregnant I suspect I would have done anything to try and get myself out of that situation.

You are having a pregnancy that you want, a baby you're looking forward to. But surely it doesn't take much empathy to realize that not every woman in the world is going to have the same experience and the same feelings as you?

'There's no reason a child with 47 or 48 chromosomes has any less right to life than a child with 46. Iceland seems to disagree'

Erm, no, what that statistic means is that the women chose to terminate when it was found the foetus had Down's Syndrome.

Mmmm I always find those very rabid anti abortionists or those seeking to curtail other women’s rights or those saying how uplifting it is to raise a child with downs or any other life limiting disease are either stupid men, religious nuts, naive childless students or simply ignorant bullies

Whiskey I’m so sorry you’ve been through that. I had a very similar experience (although I was luckily given morphine) it the side room, arranging a funeral. Unless people have have been through it they will never understand.

@Slightly it's not about forcing anyone. It's about ensuring that anyone who knowingly harms a child and then fails to seek an abortion is held accountable for what they have done. If a woman is a drug addict/alcoholic obviously that would be a slight mitigation as opposed to a woman who simply recklessly drank copious amounts. But it doesn't mean that such women are not partially responsible for their child's suffering. Less responsibile yes. Not responsible at all? No.

Look, if you don't agree with abortion, don't have one. It really is as simple as that.

There is a difference between 'things which are unpleasant' and 'things which should be illegal'. I'm upset by a lot of things - the dairy industry, adultery, the tories - but that doesn't mean that I think that people involved in them should face criminal prosecution.

Of course I would disapprove of the fictional woman who simply changes her mind about wanting a baby at 39 weeks and decides to abort - but I'll still support her right to make decisions about her own body!

OutyMcOutface

That is coercive and tantamount to forcing medical treatment on women who have addiction problems. Can't be done, would be subject to legal challenge.

it would seem better to have more babies to put up for adoption

Then get on with it. Have babies, put them up for adoption. Be an altruistic one woman baby factory. Just don't tell anyone else what they should do with their bodies and their lives.

Every woman who has a termination without a medical reason is saying that she cannot be a mother now or again or in these circumstances. Those women deserve applause. I don’t care how many times a woman has a termination - each time it’s the ultimate act of responsibility.

Thank you Kitty .. and so sorry to hear your story too.
It was 10 years ago this year, and I try to comfort myself with the fact that my DS exists ... but not a single day that goes past that I don’t think of her.

'Mmmm I always find those very rabid anti abortionists or those seeking to curtail other women’s rights or those saying how uplifting it is to raise a child with downs or any other life limiting disease are either stupid men, religious nuts, naive childless students or simply ignorant bullies'

Or wealthy enough to not require state support despite having to become a carer, or with a huge network of support.

Um, I missed that!

Unless I've missed something, Iceland has not enforced terminations for down's syndrome. Simply Icelandic parents have decided that termination was a better choice for them, individually, but the small sample size makes it easy to bring out the 100% statistic.

It's a bit alarmist to suggest that innocent women would get caught up in this

What do you mean by 'innocent' women? Surely any woman is potentially liable if she does something that she should have foreseen could have harmed her unborn child? Including painkillers, exercise, drinking before being aware of pregnancy (but should have been aware), eating e.g. soft cheese or runny eggs, failing to have had all vaccinations etc.

There is ample opportunity to seek an abortion if you cannot adequately and reasonably avoid harming the child, if you allow a child to be born despite knowingly harming them then that is on you and you should be held accountable.

OMG, do you think that nice, middle class women sit round necking vodka and shooting up while pregnant? These are often vulnerable, addicted, abused women with serious mental health issues. What precisely are you achieving by allowing them to be sued? Where does the money for the damages come from?

Your idea is horrific because it would erase women's bodily autonomy. By classing the fetus as alive, it must, logically, have equal rights to the mother, leading to an impossible situation where the lives conflict and a requirement to always put the fetus ahead of the mother where we are talking about mental rather than physical health risks. Plus, you keep saying that people should just have abortions. Surely, under your logic where the fetus is alive, that would be murder? You can't say the fetus is a legal person and at the same time say that abortion is permissible. That doesn't work.

@Kitty&Teal

I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm humbled by women who care too much for their babies see them suffer. What you did was hard but intimately selfless.

Pro-lifers generally stop giving a shit once the child has been born.

This ^^
This is why pro lifers can basically go and fuck off. Especially men. Raising a child is hard. Why aren't they rushing to help women who are struggling?
Oh yes, because it's not their child not their problem.

So they can fuck off with their pro life views. Fuck off fuck off fuck off.

Couldn’t agree more Backing enough unwanted neglected children here already.

Thank god for free safe abortions. We are so so lucky here. Not so other poor women

I'm not sure that the USA should be used as a comparison to European countries when discussing abortion rates when some US states are battling to keep their one remaining abortion facility open. The strong pro-life undercurrent, restrictive laws, healthcare costs and loss of abortion providers means that many women just can't access one in the same way.

to all of you who have had to go through this when it's been anything but your choice.

My DS was born at 24 weeks. Yes, he could have been aborted at that gestation. A friend's son and his wife had no choice but to terminate their first pregnancy at 26 weeks due to disabilities that were incompatible with life. People assume I should be fiercely anti-abortion because my son lived and breathed from 24 weeks (albeit with a vast amount of clinical intervention). But I'm pro-choice and having an extremely premature child has not changed my views. Every situation is individual, personal and different.