I don't know how I feel about abortion anymore

[sirlee66]

I've always been very pro-choice. A woman's body. A woman's right to choose.

I'm currently 34 weeks pregnant with my first and now I think my thoughts are changing.

I believe the cut off is 24 weeks? There was a lovely lady on here the other day whose waters broke and she gave birth to a baby girl at 25 weeks! If a baby can survive that early... It just seems...wrong!

Maybe the cut off could be lowered. I started feeling flutters at about 15 weeks so maybe before then.

I don't know what the answer is. I still feel really strongly that ultimately, the mother should decide but I just can't get past babies surviving outside the womb at the same age as a baby that could be aborted.

Maybe it's just pregnancy hormones. I also can't stop think about the poor women who have to make that decision. It must be so awful and I just want to give them a big hug.

I guess my question is, AIBU to not really know how I feel about it?

Iamloading

As for this comment:

The legal limit is far to late in pregnancy and considering the child can survive, having it aborted that late with all the gruesome details attached, should be classed as murder imo as that's a child who could survive that was to be blunt, killed

STFU and take your misogynistic bullshit elsewhere. Unless you are opening up your home to adopt children with multiple severe disabilities, nobody wants to hear from you. Because, oh yes, those are the ones aborted at 24 weeks plus. How you can use language like that after reading the story of Iamloaded is beyond me. A true combination of thick and coldhearted.

That’s right tinky

@Slightly-so it's acceptable for a woman who cannot overcome an addiction to choose to give birth to an extremely unhealthy child? If you have an addiction you should do the responsible thing and have an abortion instead of causing your future child suffering.

OutyMcOutface

As understandable as that view is, an abortion is a medical procedure that no one should be forced to have either. If you cannot overcome an addiction then that is a terrible thing, but it does not negate your right to choose.

so it's acceptable for a woman who cannot overcome an addiction to choose to give birth to an extremely unhealthy child? If you have an addiction you should do the responsible thing and have an abortion instead of causing your future child suffering

Yes, because bodily autonomy must be absolute. You don't have to like the consequences of that, but its a price that has to be paid to maintain the principle for all of us.

You can feel as you like but dont try to interfere with another womans healthcare. What another womans chooses is none of your business

Women dont choose late term on a whim, its normally her health at risk or the fetus is deformed
Why would anyone want laws implemented that force a woman to risk her life and body against her will?

Flutters being a reason to deny all women? That poster needs to get of the crack, seriously.

As for you second question you misunderstand the nature of tort. Tort law is a child of equity which focuses on achieving a fair outcome. A case where a mother had to receive medical treatment wouldn't give rise to action. This would only give rise to action in cases where pregnant women choose to do thing such as taking drugs and drinking heavily knowing that they will harm the future child and refuse a termination.

Ooh, thanks for that. I am a law lecturer and a former legal practitioner with three degrees in law so I bloody hope I understand tort... What about taking painkillers due to being in crippling pain? Negligence, surely?
And where would these damages come from when child sues mother?

The problem with having a limit is that it pushes people to rush into choices.

We are having genetic counselling because there are potential issues in our family history. Currently I am 14 weeks pregnant. Last week we met with the genetic counsellor and they stated that we have something like a 0.5% chance of having a specific syndrome. This syndrome causes the child to need lifelong care. 0.5% sounds low but in the general population this is somewhere in the 1 in 10,000s area of probability.

Our genetic counsellor reassured us that there is no time limit when there are medical reasons involved. She explained this because she recalled a case which had never left her, about a couple who found they had an increased chance of something (she didn't say which), but were too frightened to wait for results of more detailed testing because of the limit, they terminated at 21 weeks, were absolutely crushed by it, and it was never even certain that their baby had any problem. She also said "I can sit here and talk risks with you but at the end of this appointment, I can go home. I will not be the person who looks after your child with X syndrome."

We decided not to have testing because the risk of the test is higher than the risk of having the syndrome. But if there was a non risky test we probably would, and if somebody told us definitively yes, your child has that syndrome, we would terminate. Sorry, that doesn't make me a bad person. I am fully aware of the chances a child can become disabled through other means and that there are disorders which don't show up on any scan or test. I do not think that people with disabilities are a waste of space or don't deserve to live. I know other people with our genetic issue who just want a baby, and they are prepared to take that baby in whatever health it comes. But if I have the choice to raise a child with a severely life limiting disability, or I have the choice to let them go in a way they won't suffer, I would choose the latter, even if it means we never have a baby.

We are lucky - we know about our chances relatively early. We knew even before this that we would be likely to have higher chances of something. If we wanted to change our minds, get testing, and potentially terminate, we still have 6-10 weeks before 24 weeks (and as said, we could do it later if we really needed to). People who discover abnormalities late don't necessarily get that time - and it doesn't help to force people into decisions early due to fear.

What I’m saying is as a strategy it won’t work. Addicts are not renowned for their logical thinking, so reasoning is unlikely to be effective. In your scenario you suggest that forcing women to have an abortion would be one resolution- That’s not a place I think we should go- who decides what is acceptable behaviour? Read some of the stories from forced abortions in China and see if you still think that is the right road to travel down.

I'm OK with the 24 weeks thing - yes, some babies can now survive birth at that time, but no one's going to (or can) go for an abortion at that stage unless there are catastrophic health issues for the baby and it's not expected to survive outside the womb anyway, so I can see some parents would rather do that than go through the trauma and possible health risks of carrying to term.

You don’t have to. That’s why choice is a great thing, isn’t it?

Not sure if that was for me, but my concern is with the mental health of women undergoing termination of a healthy baby. More help & support should be given to women so they don’t have to make the decision to abort, in many cases when they don’t really want to but feel they have no choice.

How you feel about abortion is up to you. What any other woman does with regard to her pregnancy is none of your business. Ever. In any circumstances. No one is under any obligation to give a flying fuck about your feelings.

This is such a difficult issue. It’s tragic when a viable foetus is aborted but the tragedy is usually felt most by the mother who probably felt she had no option having been given heartbreaking news about the health of the foetus. Such women deserve nothing but sympathy and support.

Hypothetically, in the very rare circumstance where someone does decide to abort at 23 weeks or whatever just because they changed their mind, and currently they would be able to do so, I would probably judge them. I do acknowledge though that forcing them to continue with the pregnancy is very problematic as I do believe women should not be seen as incubators.

my concern is with the mental health of women undergoing termination of a healthy baby. More help & support should be given to women so they don’t have to make the decision to abort, in many cases when they don’t really want to but feel they have no choice

Thats not really your business though is it? Nobody asked you to be interested in their mental health.

Generally speaking, they abort because they don’t want a baby at that time, surfer

Women have risked their lives in the past for this reason. The urge to not be pregnant when you are pregnant can be very strong.

It isn't difficult at all. it is no one else's business but the woman who wants (or doesn't want) to terminate her pregnancy, and the HCPs she consults.

Pro choice.
Prior to being pregnant I thought that I would have an abortion if my nuchal scan revealed any genetic issues.

When I became pregnant and had my my first child I changed my mind. My DC are perfect but if they became ill or had an accident next week and were no longer physically/mentally able they would still be perfect to me and I would love them just the same - so now, I am still pro choice but I would not have an abortion.

Being a mum can affect people in different ways.

You can feel however you so wish about any subject, so long as you don’t think that your feelings should dictate someone else’s options.

For what it’s worth, I look after women having medical terminations after receiving poor diagnosis at the 20 week scan - believe me they are devastated and it is not a decision taken lightly, but it’s the right choice for them and comes from a genuinely held belief that it’s the kindest thing to do. I don’t have figures on terminations past 23 weeks (what would be considered viability) but I would be amazed if the numbers done for non-medical reasons were more than 1-2% of the total.

It’s not about loving them.

It’s about doing what’s right by them.

Sometimes, that is deciding not to continue with a pregnancy.

This is snopes, who are pretty thorough.

nearly 100 percent of the 80 to 85 percent of people who take the test and test positive for Down Syndrome choose to abort their pregnancy. There are similar termination rates after fetal diagnoses of Down syndrome in other European countries. In Denmark, for example, the rate is about 98 percent, CBS News reported. In the United States, for comparison’s sake, the rate of mothers choosing to terminate their pregnancy after receiving a Down syndrome diagnosis is about 68 percent.

I can't find information about the % of pregnancies terminated in the U.K. because of Down's. I did find information that termination due to foetal abnormalities is underreported by about 50%.
Also a statistic (which I'm not wording very well) suggesting that women are more likely to terminate a pregnancy, if they have terminated one already.

More help & support should be given to women so they don’t have to make the decision to abort, in many cases when they don’t really want to but feel they have no choice

The 'help and support' that pro-lifers offer includes standing outside abortion clinics, harassing and threatening staff and telling vulnerable women that they will burn in hell, while distributing graphic images of aborted fetuses. Don't think that's going to help their mental health to be fair.

Also, it is wrong to assume that women who have abortions feel they have no other choice. Most do it because it is a better option than continuing with the pregnancy (for whatever reason). You are infantalising them by suggesting that they don't know their own minds and would make a different decision if they had counselling.

This is a difficult subject because it's just so emotive, however a foetus does not have the right to life until it is born in the UK and I do believe this to be absolutely right ethically. The abortion act hasn't really changed since 1967 because ultimately no one can really agree on the ethics and what is an acceptable change. I think when you are pregnant with a wanted child it is difficult to imagine getting so far and wanting to get rid of it, but as we can see from these posts, there is so much more to it than simply 'oops, better get rid of it now'. And as I understand it, 24 weeks is not an absolute cut off anyway, circumstances are considered at any stage and the drs will make a final decision

A few years ago there was a bbc documentary about abortion in Northern Ireland. A woman found out her much wanted baby had Edwards syndrome at the 20 week scan. If it survived to term it would die shortly afterward birth.

And that was it. She had to go about her small town with a bump getting bigger and bigger and people congratulating her on the street and she’d have to tell them there wouldn’t be a baby.
Instead of decorating the nursery she was planning a funeral

What kind of sick country would put anyone through that?

I am pro choice.
I am also pro disability rights.
One doesn't cancel the other out.
I have been told that I can't be pro choice and have strong feelings about the screening out of disability but the people who told me that were wrong.

Babies can survive at 24 weeks but the reality is that the vast majority will have significant disabilities. Life limiting, life long, complex needs.
So why do so many people cite 'they can survive at 24weeks' as a reason why they are anti abortion 'except in the case of disability'

That makes no sense to me. You either value children with disabilities and want them to live or you don't

Of course you have the pro birthers who believe that every conception should be carried till the end but they don't care about anything much past that. Disabled or not. Once the child is born their concern ends. Particularly if the family need state help to survive.

The whataboutery in the abortion debate is never ending.

Trust women. The End.

I may be repeating what someone else has already said, but you really need to do some research on this and understand what an abortion at 24 weeks actually is. I had to go through this as my very much wanted DD2 had a serious heart condition that meant she would not survive outside the womb. Even in those circumstances when we made that heartbreaking decision it had to be signed off by 3 doctors. No-one would be able to go through it in anything other than the most serious circumstances. And the termination itself ? I went through full labour and gave birth to my DD on a room just outside the maternity ward. So I didn’t have to hear the newborn babies, but could see the happy visiting relatives. As not on the labour ward, of course could have no pain relief for my 6 hour labour. And then as 24+1 had to have a death certificate issued, and then arrange the funeral.
Know your facts before you judge.