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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Child Maintenance is fair?

342 replies

R2G · 26/02/2018 23:09

Just that. Does anyone have any opposite views? Anyone feel they ask to much? Etc

OP posts:
Beehivesandhoney · 01/03/2018 13:10

Usernamealreadytaken

'whereas if a woman sleeps with a feckless man, she is given all the sympathy'

Are you kidding me?

Single mothers are prejudiced and vilified regularly often throughout media and press and members of the public as feckless arseholes who have a baby for a council house.

I have been told very recently that single Mum's should have their children put into care so they can work despite most single parents working.

Our former prime minister immediately blamed those from fatherless homes during the riots (no mention of the millionaires daughter who was caught...)

No one is telling the fathers who have buggered off how bad they are.

usernamealreadytaken · 01/03/2018 13:13

I'd love to see the reaction from all the posters on here when their DH/DPs all started wearing condoms for no reason other than "to be sure" when not actively TTC. How many would assume affairs, marital issues, lack of trust etc and then it would all be the man's fault. I know if DH suggested it out of the blue, I would worry as to motive (under other circumstances).

Beehivesandhoney · 01/03/2018 13:18

Username if you are having sex without a condom in a long term relationship with a dp or dh then I would assume that you would be fine with having a baby should it happen that you got pregnant surely?

I would presume the same for the man too?

Idontdowindows · 01/03/2018 13:19

I'd love to see the reaction from all the posters on here when their DH/DPs all started wearing condoms for no reason other than "to be sure" when not actively TTC.

I got mine pre-snipped. You see, he took responsibility for his own reproductive health.

MargaretCavendish · 01/03/2018 13:24

There's a huge difference between the decision not to use condoms in a long-term relationship with someone you trust and the decision to not use them in a casual or new relationship. Of course a man could be 'tricked' in the first scenario, but that's a risk we all take in a long-term relationship; it makes you potentially vulnerable. I'm pregnant and my DH could walk out tomorrow (and regardless of him having to pay maintenance, that would leave me pretty screwed in a situation that we jointly made); he could spend everything in our joint account on buttons; he could run up huge debts for which I'd be jointly responsible. There's no such thing as a risk-free relationship, because it would have to be a relationship in which you invested nothing in each other. So yes, a man trusting his wife to take the pill is taking a risk, but a justified one (unless he has reason to suspect her of lying about this kind of thing - in which case they have bigger problems!). A man not bothering to use a condom in a casual relationship with someone he doesn't know well enough to rely on is in a completely different, and far more foolish, category.

LaurieMarlow · 01/03/2018 13:45

user I'm not sure why your husband taking responsibility for his own reproduction is such a big deal to you.

Summerisdone · 01/03/2018 13:53

@littlemissrain I can see you’re opinion was not a popular one but I agree with you I terms of giving the man a choice.
I have always said that I believe it should be this way, so long as the man makes a decision within the same time frame a woman has to choose abortion or not, and once he has made his decision there is no going back on it ever.
I do fee it’s unfair that we women can decide to abort and legally the man cannot do a thing to stop us, but if we decide to keep the hold then they must financially provide.

I believe if the children are already here before a couple breaks up though, then the father should absolutely have to still provide, they can’t just suddenly walk away (at least financially) from a child they’ve already been a father to.

Idontdowindows · 01/03/2018 14:10

I do fee it’s unfair that we women can decide to abort and legally the man cannot do a thing to stop us, but if we decide to keep the hold then they must financially provide.

So in order to make biological reality "fair" somehow, you think the fairest thing is to ensure that a child goes without the financial support of its father?

Because that's what this will achieve. It will be a form of punishment for both the mother and the child.

Telling men they can just walk away from any children they help create is not actually making it fair.

DeleteOrDecay · 01/03/2018 14:41

I do fee it’s unfair that we women can decide to abort and legally the man cannot do a thing to stop us, but if we decide to keep the hold then they must financially provide

That's biology, like it or lump it. Men can wear condoms, they can even abstain if the thought of fathering a child is that terrifying.

Once again no one in favour of this ridiculous idea thinks about the child. It's all about what is deemed 'fair' for the man. Such bollocks.

pallisers · 01/03/2018 15:41

I have always said that I believe it should be this way, so long as the man makes a decision within the same time frame a woman has to choose abortion or not, and once he has made his decision there is no going back on it ever.

Presumably this will not be available to men in Northern Ireland (and men there will be liable for prosecution if they attempt it). Also, presumably they will be obliged to be examined by 2 doctors to authorise the "financial abortion".

Also, they should have to go to Financial Abortion Clinics to complete the paperwork so women can picket them and shout "murderer" as they go by.

Oh, and do you have a handy explanation the mother can give to the child about their father's decision to "financially abort" them - I'd say lots of women would want some help with that one.

Graphista · 01/03/2018 15:49

Usernamealreadytaken - really? I take it ALL that info is from what dh told you? Or certainly most of it, plus I'm sick of "she lied about being on the pill" these men if they don't want DC need to take some fucking responsibility! For their sexual health if no other reason - she was supposedly sleeping with at least 2 of them that he knew of and he couldn't make the effort to wear a condom?? Really??? Also I REALLY hope he got a full sti screening before he shagged you.

"Simply telling men that having unprotected sex is permission for a pregnancy and a commitment to the next 18 years is ridiculous" no! It really isn't! It's called taking adult responsibility for an adult act that they CHOOSE to participate in.

"as there are some very devious women out there" and some lying shits of men! "She trapped me" "I never wanted the child" "she cheated with like LOADS of people I'm not even sure the child's mine"

"she is given all the sympathy and choices. Very unequal and unfair." You KNOW that's not true.

I'm guessing you're not and never have been a Lp I'm not sure if you're a parent at all actually but single mums are CONSTANTLY judged, vilified, expected to justify EVERY decision they make from the moment of conception - this is NOT what happens to men.

I've always used condoms as well as the pill/injection when not ttc - to be absolutely sure. None of my long term relationship men have had a problem with that.

Bellamuerte · 01/03/2018 16:01

Following on from what @littlemissrain said... in my opinion the man should only be required to pay maintenance if the child is actually his.

If the mother is married when the child is born, the authorities will deem the husband to be the father even if he isn't (e.g. if the child was the result of an affair). Or if the man has been tricked into believing the child is his and has signed the birth certificate, then finds out later that he isn't the father. Not only will the man find it virtually impossible to get a refund for the maintenance the mother has already tricked him into paying, he can also be required to continue paying until the child reaches 18. Very unfair!

Pinkvoid · 01/03/2018 16:09

Nah it’s not fair whatsoever. My exh pays what is advised which equates to £16 per child per week. Literally get more from child benefit than he pays me. I don’t see how £16 a week can feed, clothe, provide electricty, gas, water, a home and also just a decent quality of life for a child. He only has them 24 hours a week as well so the vast majority of their food and other amenities is on me. But I’m not being underpaid apparently Hmm.

Also worth noting he is allowed to pay me less purely because he lives with his new partner’s two DC who aren’t even legally his stepchildren let alone anything else. It’s really, really not fair.

stitchglitched · 01/03/2018 16:56

Summerisdone where do the rights of the child factor in to your suggestion? I cannot see any mention of their welfare at all. You seem to advocate a two tier system of children deemed worthy and unworthy of support based on whether their father stuck around to meet them or not. You also don't seem to have any consideration that it is generally considered in the best interests of the child to know both of their parents, since even if the Dad grew up within a few months and had a change of heart he would have no legal status to ask for contact.

Do you really think the right of men to unlimited sex without consequence to be enshrined in law is what is needed here? I'm really baffled as to why anyone would prioritise a man's convenience over a child's needs.

usernamealreadytaken · 01/03/2018 17:10

@Graphista we both got a full sti screening before we stopped using condoms, as I wasn't a virgin either, and it would have been rather hypocritical of me to request he had tests that I wasn't prepared to take too. We both took responsibility, because we were both mature enough to do so.

Toadinthehole · 01/03/2018 17:56

Confrontayshunme

I'm a sexual health educator in schools, and it's amazing that this conversation is happening when I had to talk to a group of 350 of Year 9's about this very topic.

According to our presentation: "The Child Support/Maintenance Agency take the view that if you decide to have sex, you are deciding to deal with the consequences of that decision, one of which is unplanned pregnancy. "

One of the Year 9's in the discussion part was absolutely hilarious: "If you have sex with a complete idiot because you drank too much, you have no one else to blame when you are in a council flat full of mold and your kids are eating free school lunch." I seriously almost LOST IT.

Actually I think that's a very odd comment by the CMA. Generally, when people decide to have sex, they decide to have sex. What else they may be thinking about really depends on context. In any event, it's hardly the CMA's business to take that sort of view. Their business is to collect maintenance from those obliged to pay it. Perhaps if they stuck to that rather than making ill-thought out rhetorical statements everyone would get somewhere.

Also, if that they say is correct, then your Year 9 has got a point. If you put it about with unreliable people, then actually yes, you do have yourself to blame for the consequences. When I put the CMA's apparent view together with your response, it is almost as if the financial consequence is only for the men. As seems clear from this thread, that simply isn't so.

Toadinthehole · 01/03/2018 18:04

I do fee it’s unfair that we women can decide to abort and legally the man cannot do a thing to stop us, but if we decide to keep the hold then they must financially provide

Sperm donors are exempt from child support / maintenance in many jurisdictions, and I imagine that the various jurisdictions in the UK are no exception. So actually we already allow biological parents to 'abort' (although perhaps this would be better described as a 'financial sterilisation').

Graphista · 01/03/2018 18:23

"because we were both mature enough to do so." HIS behaviour that resulted in his dd being born rather suggests otherwise.

usernamealreadytaken · 02/03/2018 12:40

graphista HIS behaviour that resulted in his dd being born rather suggests otherwise yes but luckily ten years later he was slightly more mature and responsible; he learned from his mistakes.

Graphista · 02/03/2018 14:22

Delightful way to refer to his child

ihatethisfeeling · 02/03/2018 14:32

Totally agree with littlemissrain. With personal experience someone I know lied about being on birth control and used her partner as a sperm doner knowing he was a high earner. She takes the money every month but refuses contact.

LaurieMarlow · 02/03/2018 14:50

ihate and the guy in question failed to wear a condom for what reason?

PoundingTheStreets · 02/03/2018 15:41

Here are some facts from legitimate sources (ONS, DWP, IFS etc). They date to 2015 and later.

There are about 2 million single parent families in the UK.

Nearly half (47%) of children in single parent families live in relative poverty compared to under a quarter (24%) of parents in coupled families. (Despite the fact that 68% of single parent families are headed by a parent in work.) This equates to around 940,000 children in relative poverty.

Only 38% of single parents receive maintenance (this includes voluntary arrangements as well as forced payments through CSA/CMS etc). Based on the 2m figure above, this equates to around 760,000 who receive maintenance, leaving 1,240,000 who receive nothing.

Around 40% of NRPs who pay maintenance are in relative poverty. Again, based on the 2m figure, that’s around 304,000 NRPs.

Maintenance does not count as income when assessments for benefits are taken into account.

90% of single parents are mothers.

PoundingTheStreets · 02/03/2018 17:29

The question ‘AIBU to think Child Maintenance is fair?’ has to be qualified by ‘To whom?”
Children?
Mothers?
Fathers?

Child maintenance doesn’t work well for anyone TBH – RPs rarely get it and when they do it appears to be of little value (CSA figures show average pay is £34 per week). NRPs who pay it end up suffering also, particularly if they have second families.

However, if we’re looking at the lesser of two evils, 304,000 NRPs (mainly men) suffering financial hardship is more palatable than further adding to the 940,000 children currently living in poverty.

If we allow NRPs to ‘financially abort’ their responsibilities, there will be an increase in child poverty.

Is that fair? Not in my opinion. Children have no control over their circumstances or whether or not they were born. I’d rather see children’s rights protected than the rights of adults not to have their lives upended for a child they did not want.

And that’s even before you consider the gender implications.

Even now, in 2018 when women have more equality than at any other time in history and despite the fact we have full legislative equality, we still have a gender pay gap, 80% of chores in the home are still carried out by women, women are overwhelmingly the primary carers in families, and more mothers than fathers go part time or give up paid work. In short, the ideology that all things domestic, especially child care, are women’s responsibilities first and men ‘help’.

This is, of course, exactly why more single parents are women than men. It is generally women who SAH or go PT to accommodate children. Few families really practice 50/50 parenting (partly because our maternity/paternity laws don’t facilitate it well). So when a couple separates it is standard practice that the child(ren) goes to the parent who does most care 0 and in cases where residency is contested, family courts tend to favour the status quo to unsettle the children least (hence the popularity of the EOW arrangement).

It’s also the reason so many single parents live in poverty. Women are generally more likely to be in poverty compared to men, but the gap is small (2%) before children enter the picture and widens significantly after. By the time a child is 12, women (on average) earn a third less than men for example. Within the relationship women have sacrificed economic parity for the greater good of the family and if the relationship then breaks down and they find themselves a single parent, they (and the child) suffer further because of it. That isn’t to say that the arrangement was wrong in the first place (there are plenty of good reasons for such a set up and when it works it can work exceptionally well), just that not enough protection is afforded to the mother and the child in the event of family breakdown. It generally works the same when the genders are reversed, although they rarely are.

To allow fathers to ‘financially abort’ an unwanted child basically states that children are women’s responsibility because they conceive and so should have a greater responsibility over contraception. This is such a regressive step for female equality it beggars belief.
It removes sexual agency from women.
It encourages a social norm where women are anchored in the domestic sphere and hinders their full involvement in the workplace, so reducing their economic agency.
It allows abusive men to behave with impunity.
It damages decent men by relegating them to second-class-level parents.
And perhaps more importantly than any of those, it allows children to suffer for the poor choices/actions of adults.

cheminotte · 02/03/2018 19:07

Shocking statistics and great post Pounding .