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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Child Maintenance is fair?

342 replies

R2G · 26/02/2018 23:09

Just that. Does anyone have any opposite views? Anyone feel they ask to much? Etc

OP posts:
Prettylovely · 28/02/2018 20:16

" Prettylovely - most politicians are white middle class - even upper class - men. They're far more likely to be nrps than RP's and that's their perspective. "
Which is why it will never get fixed graphista

jacks11 · 28/02/2018 20:18

Littlemiss

I see where you are coming from regarding the fact that women get to make the ultimate decision about whether a man is a parent or not.

However, what you propose raises so many negatives for me. Not for the men, of course: wonderful solution for men. Not so much for the children they may father though: however, their needs and welfare seems secondary to what is "fair" to men in this suggestion. And it also raises so many practical issues too.

At any point until the baby born a man should be allowed to "financially abort"? So could a man, theoretically, go along with a pregnancy all the way through and in the last few weeks, days before birth then change his mind and wash his hands of the child?

What about the fact women don't get that long to make a decision about abortion- so if "equality" about decisions to be a parent is what you're after, then at what point is he forced to make that decision? By 10 weeks? By 14 weeks? By 24 weeks? Where do you draw the line?

Bearing in mind that women can't make a decision one day and be booked in for a termination within the next few days. So if your idea is also to allow women to make a "fully informed" decision in possession of all the facts (i.e. will the father make any financial contribution) then theoretically he's going to have to make that decision pretty early on: unless women are going to be pushed towards abortions towards the end of the legal limit, rather than as earlier as possible, whilst waiting for men to make a decision. That's assuming that women will make their decision based on this, of course, which I suspect won't be too many.

And is a man allowed to do this indefinitely? No limits, no need to take responsibility for any of his actions? Because a woman does: have the baby or have an abortion, with all the things that come with either one of those decisions. Under your proposals, however, a man gets to walk away with no responsibilities and very little in terms of consequence. No matter how many children he fathers.

jacks11 · 28/02/2018 20:23

As to whether maintenance is fair: it's imperfect. But both parents should meet the cost of raising their children. Many get away with nothing like it and their children and the resident parent bear the brunt of that in most cases.

Partners who say "but our child gets less than their older children" are usually missing out that the older children will usually get less than 50% of the cost of raising them given to them. And also that if you chose to have a child in these circumstances, you make that in the knowledge of what your financial state is: the cost of raising the older children doesn't change though.

ilovemilton · 28/02/2018 20:35

I get £27 a week for two children because my graduate exh chooses to work part time in a shop. I provide all clothing, toys etc for both houses plus all uniforms, school trips, dinner monies, bus fare etc etc.

RockPaperCut · 28/02/2018 20:48

These CM threads really get my goat. Why Oh why do other women collude with this shit?! If was in a relationship with someone who was avoiding paying for his child I would end it right there. If your Dh/DP isn’t paying for his children from a previous relationship, it stands to reason that if your relationship comes to an end, he will not pay for your dc.

My high earning STBX has strategically lost his job. He’s now taking time out to find himself. 🙄

RockPaperCut · 28/02/2018 20:49

....Whilst not paying CM.

DeleteOrDecay · 28/02/2018 21:02

Not so much for the children they may father though: however, their needs and welfare seems secondary to what is "fair" to men in this suggestion.

This always gets me. Why oh why are people so concerned with making things 'fair' for men at the expense of the child? The child(ren) should be at the centre of this.

I think a lot of it boils down to the nrp (and sometimes their partner) resenting putting money into their ex's account, rather than looking at the bigger picture and realising that the money is for their child.

It's sad, mainly for the children involved. Adults suck sometimes.

lifeandtheuniverse · 28/02/2018 21:05

I was married for 10 yrs - fully agreed decision to have DCs. In fact he pushe me for the second one.

Does that give him the right to financially abort his wanted DCs, run off with OW, live the life of Riley and spedn all his monies on beer and whores - no it bloody does not.

Have never heard such a riducous concept in my life. Shall I financailly abort 2nd DC because I really had to be persuaded to have them.

Utter utter tripe

newsparklythings · 28/02/2018 21:17

Bloody hell shitshow of a thread sums it up well

Little story here:
I was a relatively good earning singleton
Just 'seeing' a guy - early relationship stages - who was a 40-something divorcee, 3 DC from a previous marriage
He didn't like to wear condoms, ever.. I took care of contraception but it failed, which happens but I never expected it
Finding out I was pregnant threw me into a tailspin, it was the last thing I intended - but as I'm a women it was a biological reality and there was no turning back. Unlike him, it was my first experience of pregnancy/family-anything
As soon as he found out, he disappeared - literally - from my life. Didn't even check what I intended to do, or how I was, never would have done.
I didn't actually make a decision about the pregnancy - although old enough to (30-something), my mental health in that situation was so bad I spent pretty much my entire pregnancy (and beyond) in fits of tears
Multiple, multiple requests for NHS counselling led to nothing, just being passed around services for assessments until well beyond the point where a decision would have had to have been made

In the end, I am a single parent, with total responsibility.
I have tracked my child's father down and openly, willingly invited him to be a part of her life despite my own feelings about him - he has never met her
Through the CMS he pays less than £30 per week, because he claims that his earnings are about £1k gross per month
£30 does not even begin to cover the cost of raising DD
He started a limited company the same month the CMS first contacted him.
When we were together, his rent was around £2,500 on a sizeable property, he owned several rental properties and a boat. He has a high-earning skill set and job. I do not believe he only earns £1k per month, but it is very hard to prove
When I contacted the CMS he got in touch to very aggressively express his anger that I was trying to squeeze money from him
If I had wanted money, I was better off before this on my own pre-baby salary - I now earn about half that because I cannot do overtime, or travel at all

My day begins at 5am, I am out of the house by 7am, I return at 6pm with my daughter and after she is in bed I continue working - it is intense
There is never anyone at home to ask how my day was and offload to, noone to look after her so I can pop out to a corner shop, noone to take her for a few hours or at a weekend so I can have a break - or even to help deal with a half hour tantrum about some minor issue that a pre-schooler has.
My weekends are spent trying to restore the house to a decent state and sort out all the admin tasks that are also mine to deal with
Like this month when HMRC decided I hadn't supplied them with information about tax credits and sent a letter saying they were going to stop sending the money that I do get from them (enabling me to work and send DD to nursery), and fine me a large amount - despite me having sent them a full envelope of payslips, invoices and letters dating back 2 years just like they asked for.
I never get to go out, anywhere, have a conversation never mind a relationship - friend or other.
And then someone comes along to say that DD's father, poor soul, shouldn't have to pay maintenance for a child he doesn't want.
And to tell me that I am clearly a feckless lazy less-than human being for daring to be a single mother.

Oh, and after disappearing from my life, I found out, he met someone else and has another child.. possibly more by now, who knows.

cheminotte · 28/02/2018 21:20

Definitely a feminist issue. I agree men should have consequences if they don’t pay up as women can’t just opt out of raising their children.

Lovemusic33 · 28/02/2018 21:21

R2G my ex is in a low payed job, he’s living in a bed sit as he can’t afford rent on a flat (expensive area), he pays me £140 a month, he’s also paying me a bit extra each month to cover the divorce which I am paying for. I am happy with that amount, it pays for any clothes the dd’s need. He also buys them gifts (things they have asked for) occasionally.

reallyanotherone · 28/02/2018 21:40

Definitely a feminist issue. I agree men should have consequences if they don’t pay up as women can’t just opt out of raising their children

They can. It is just less socially acceptable for them to do so, and our society and conditioning means they do so less often than men.

Men know the chance of them being awarded rp is nil, so they don’t even try.

Is the feminist issue really about making men pay up? Or should it be about equality of parenting? Should we be fighting for equal pay so women are less likely to hold the lower paid, non career role- thus making it as viable a decision to take the home making role supporting his wifes career?

If we are honest, do we want to step away from the women as main carers role? I know i don’t want to fight against that default because it works in my favour should dh and i split.

That feels very anti- feminist to me. I want the female-as-primary-carer status quo as i would never want to be nrp. Men accept nrp as they don’t have a choice, and in fact they might be negatively judged for “taking the kids away” from their mother.

I believe that men are equally capable of raising children. I feel uncomfortable seeing them and treating them as the “men bring in the money” stereotype.

Is it even possible to have an equal parenting role after a split, or must one parent always be primary carer?

Where does this leave feminism? We want equality but we also want to retain our primary childcarer roles. I don’t think just forcing men to pay up is the feminist issue.

Graphista · 28/02/2018 21:41

We can vote for/elect more women, more working class politicians.

How many on this thread have raised this issue with their MP's? Especially around election time? I have and do. Quick phone call for me - pressure on them. If more of us did this it would perhaps help at least a little.

I refuse to give up on this issue. My dd is now 17 and I'm no longer entitled to use cms anyway, but I have family and friends in similar position and I have a dd I do not want to struggle as I did should she become a Lp so I will continue to put pressure on my MP, sign petitions and raise awareness.

Confrontayshunme · 28/02/2018 21:42

I'm a sexual health educator in schools, and it's amazing that this conversation is happening when I had to talk to a group of 350 of Year 9's about this very topic.

According to our presentation: "The Child Support/Maintenance Agency take the view that if you decide to have sex, you are deciding to deal with the consequences of that decision, one of which is unplanned pregnancy. "

One of the Year 9's in the discussion part was absolutely hilarious: "If you have sex with a complete idiot because you drank too much, you have no one else to blame when you are in a council flat full of mold and your kids are eating free school lunch." I seriously almost LOST IT.

Graphista · 28/02/2018 21:46

As I've said my experience has been that non-maintenance payers (of both sexes) also tend to not want contact either or be very irresponsible and erratic with it.

For the sake of the children forced contact is a bad idea, but ALSO for the sake of the children enforced financial responsibility is necessary.

We are FAR too soft on this in U.K. Cms HAS sanctions it can use BUT chooses not to use them.

They ALSO have powers to investigate if what an nrp CLAIMS is their income matches their lifestyle but they very rarely get off their backsides and do so!

RockPaperCut · 28/02/2018 22:10

Men equally need to speak up and step up. They have to take some responsibility for the change to take place.

As a father, if you don’t want to see less of your child in the event of divorce, then establish yourself as an equal parent performing a decent amount of care for your dc. And that means taking up paternity leave, asking for flexible working and taking time off when dc are poorly.

Dilligaf81 · 28/02/2018 23:55

Not all things can be equal. There are reasons some things aren't such as body autonomy or an over riding reason like child. The child is the most important thing in this.
Use a condom, yes not 100% but over 99% and not ever women is trying to trap a man so less than 10 in a 1000 split then I'd imagine a minute number would actually get pregnant then a small % of women in those situations would want to 'trap' the man.
I have no idea how any feminist (or anyone with any humanity) could come up with the ridiculous idea of financial abortion.

DeleteOrDecay · 01/03/2018 00:28

The only person a financial abortion would benefit is the man, the child born into the situation is the one who suffers the most. It works on the assumption that most women set out to get pregnant to trap a man, the child's needs are an afterthought.

It's more like an mra idea than a feminist one.

Allburntout · 01/03/2018 09:11

The child did not ask to be born, therefore both parents should pay. Why should the child suffer the consequences. It is too easy for a man to walk away from his responsibilities.

Michellelovesizzy · 01/03/2018 10:22

My partner has a child with some else she is now 12 he hasent seen her since she was 4 we still pay the woman £200 A month probadly not enough if i am honest more that the child support agency has ask for thou..... men should pay for there children regardless of the sisutaion

usernamealreadytaken · 01/03/2018 11:16

Prior to our meeting, my now-DH was in an on-off relationship with an older woman, who was also in an on-off relationship with at least one other man. She told all her partners that she was using contraception, but then unilaterally decided to stop taking it, without informing either of them.

When she (surprisingly?!?) fell PG, her first and preferred choice of father sodded off back to his GF and DH did the decent thing and stood by her. When their gorgeous DD arrived the mother refused to allow a DNA test, as she had decided she was wrong and of course DD was absolutely his. She gave up work and wanted to be a SAHM, which he worked hard (two jobs) to be able to afford. She stayed home and ran up debts and had affairs, but he stayed as he wanted to be there for his DD.

When she eventually left him (for an even younger bloke) she got the house and residence, whilst he got a shed load of abuse and paid voluntary ££ a month, which was nearly half his income, but he didn't want to shirk his responsibilities or see DD go without. She didn't keep to contact arrangements, and bad mouthed him at every opportunity. He had to apply to the court for parental responsibility, as even though he was named on the birth cert, because they weren't married he had no rights over his DD if anything happened to her mum.

She applied to CSA because she wanted more money from him, and when the CSA assessment came back at slightly less than he had been voluntarily paying, she consulted a solicitor as she assumed he would have to pay the £600 he had volunteered, PLUS the amount of the assessment.

She was, and still remains, an utter money grabbing cow and we have as little as possible to do with her BUT in all that she is utterly dedicated to DSD and has raised a beautiful, intelligent, generous and kind daughter. She takes all the credit for this, of course, but we like to think that we had a little to do with that too. We do resent that she did not see that her responsibility was also to work and provide financially for DSD, but to take as much as possible from DH and I to facilitate her lifestyle choice. I completely understand that DH did have a choice in whether to participate or not in very difficult circumstances, and I admire his commitment in the face of not even knowing whether DD was his.

The whole situation is horrible and simply taking money from one person (and tax payers) is an awful way to deal with it. Simply telling men that having unprotected sex is permission for a pregnancy and a commitment to the next 18 years is ridiculous, as there are some very devious women out there. The double standard is that if a man sleeps with a conniving feckless woman, he has to suck it up and pay without a further say, whereas if a woman sleeps with a feckless man, she is given all the sympathy and choices. Very unequal and unfair.

LaurieMarlow · 01/03/2018 11:52

user I'm not sure what would have prevented your husband from using a condom if he wanted to avoid the situation that unfolded?

It's true that people aren't always 100% trustworthy, but men have ways of protecting themselves that they don't use.

Idontdowindows · 01/03/2018 12:21

The double standard is that if a man sleeps with a conniving feckless woman, he has to suck it up and pay without a further say, whereas if a woman sleeps with a feckless man, she is given all the sympathy and choices.

Except she isn't given all the sympathy. Abortion hasn't been legal all that long, and still isn't in many places, and men still walk away from their children with impunity, and women are blamed for being single mothers.

It' is not unfair, men cannot get pregnant. If men do not want to have to have children, men need to take control of their own reproduction, just like women have had to do!

In the past, and in many cases in the present, men are able to walk away from their children without any recourse for the mother or the children, and many actually do.

The number of women that walk away from their children and leave the father to fend on his own is absolutely miniscule compared to the number of men who walk way, both when you include the ones that still pay (sometimes laughable amounts) and when you exclude them.

So yay, women have the option of an abortion, but if they don't abort, then in very many cases they still have to raise this child alone, because the father can just fuck off if he wants to.

DeleteOrDecay · 01/03/2018 12:51

Simply telling men that having unprotected sex is permission for a pregnancy and a commitment to the next 18 years is ridiculous

How is it ridiculous? If you have unprotected sex you can't be surprised when a baby is made. It doesn't matter how 'devious' the woman is. Don't want a baby? Don't have unprotected sex. Not. difficult.

MargaretCavendish · 01/03/2018 13:10

Prior to our meeting, my now-DH was in an on-off relationship with an older woman, who was also in an on-off relationship with at least one other man. She told all her partners that she was using contraception, but then unilaterally decided to stop taking it, without informing either of them.

Ah, you're right. There are no reasons at all here why it might have occurred to a sensible man to use a condom...