Cocks and Vaginas

[ChaosAndPiss]

AIBU to think we should just change toilets and changing rooms from male and female to just Cocks and Vaginas (or vulvas if you want)

No self identifying bollocks. If you have a dick you go in there. If you don't you go in there. Simple.

We can remove the lady in a dress picture and the man picture and just put pictures of genitals on the doors instead

this is all said in a joking manner. Mostly.

Well if they whip their penis out I can tell them to leave. You can (say) call the neighbourhood safety team or the management and ask them to be removed. That kind of thing.

Whereas with self-ID it might be their female penis they're waving around.

Katherina if someone whips out their privates in a public toilet you can get them chucked out for inappropriate behaviour regardless of the shape of those genitals. Jesus Christ.

Not really, because that's what toilets are for. I mean, there is a line between "lewd behaviour" and just using the toilet/urinal or "adjusting my clothes, Officer".

But mainly, if a 6' bloke walks into the female loos and it's obvious he's a bloke you can challenge him under sex-based distinction - but not under gender-based.

nickeynackynoodlenoo your banana/non banana suggestions is offensive to me. I will not be defined by the lack of fruit down my pants

Not really, because that's what toilets are for.

Have you ever seen someone's privates in a public toilet? Urinals? In a ladies? We are talking about the ladies toilets here aren't we?

if a 6' bloke walks into the female loos and it's obvious he's a bloke you can challenge him under sex-based distinction - but not under gender-based.

You're not hearing what I'm saying. If you challenge "him" under a sex-based distinction and "he" says "he'" a female to male transsexual, so has xx chromosomes and a vagina, there is NOTHING you can do about it. And it's no different to a man who looks like a man saying they "identify" as a woman in a gender-based system.

Urinals? In a ladies? We are talking about the ladies toilets here aren't we?

Ladies' urinals. For those ladies with penises. They're actually a thing (I am not being facetious).

I am hearing what you're saying - I'm saying that if that man says he's a female and I say bollocks and he says yes I am, then I can call the management or whatever police-lite version operates in the neighbourhood.

I'm saying sex is something you can prove.

Right, so the law being made a lot easier for abuse by perverts (or on a different point, gain in terms of sports/scholarships etc) will DEFINITELY not lead to women being put at risk in places where they should feel safe, and all women should suck that up, just because xulishes is convinced?

There are so many reasons why the changes have the potential to be bad for women, all covered in these threads time and time again.

But no, 50% of the world's population are just expected to accept the risk and have what they are redefined because of a teeny tiny minority, who could be catered for with just as much safety and respect and dignity by simply having a third changing room, and many of whom don't want the changes in the first place?

When we start seeing women's sports disappear and women attacked by perverts in changing rooms and the stats on women's crimes skewed by men who suddenly decide they're having laydee feelz and must go to a women's prison - will the light dawn for people like xulishes then?

I doubt it; somehow that'll still be women's fault.

You're talking about a made-up fantasy land Katherina; you're talking about a place where genitals are on show in the ladies' loos and any nervy woman who thinks a fellow toilet-goer doesn't look quite womanly enough can have them stripped by the police before they can enter a cubicle!

Whereas I'm talking about the actual UK where ladies toilets have cubicles and noone can be made to drop their trousers before taking a tinkle on the say-so of some random person!

so the law being made a lot easier for abuse by perverts

Please explain to me why you think self-ID will make it easier for perverts to access toilets - specifically toilets - because literally no-one here is answering that question.

Because it's so much in the public domain now. The publicity around self ID will give some people ideas or courage to fulfil their fantasies - oh, I just have to say I'm a woman and nobody can stop me, that's genius. I don't even need to buy a lipstick!

And a lot of damage can be done by the time a woman has shouted for help. The fewer men in women's bathrooms, the better.

This does not affect men who have transitioned; as said clearly above thread, I struggle to believe that they would pose any sort of threat whatsoever. As always, it's about those who will abuse the position.

And that ain't going to be women!

OK - lots and lots of women adjust their clothing - sometimes very drastically - in public loos, and sometimes quite a lot is on show. But you don't have to believe me on that point.

Most toilets have stalls rather than fully-enclosed cubicles. As I said above, I think enclosed cubes with basins in might be the way to go.

A suspicion of a predator in the women's loos would be enough reason to call management or the police where I live (and I live in London).

Ladies' urinals are becoming a thing.

Katherina - I've seen women stripping right off in the toilets. To swap tops; to rearrange underwear; one of my friends stripped down to a thong to dry her outfit as she'd spilled a drink all over it. I have also known or known of men who get off on women pissing and hearing women pissing, however beyond bizarre that seems to me (my friend ditched her new boyfriend when he begged to watch or listen!), so even a floor to ceiling cubicle isn't going to stop that.

oh, I just have to say I'm a woman and nobody can stop me, that's genius. I don't even need to buy a lipstick!

They can do this right now by saying they're ftm. Please tell me how things will change.

Katherina you're trying very hard to assert reasons to be worried about toilets by skirting all around the issue. The fact is someone behaving inappropriately in toilets can be challenged now, they could be challenged under self-ID. Predatory men could lie to access the loos under self-id, they could do exactly the same now. There is no burden of proof required to use the ladies now, there would be none under self-ID.

It makes no difference to toilets.

It's right there in the post above.

Right now, they probably don't realise that's the case. The publicity around all this is going to encourage perverts who would otherwise not have thought of it. It seems naive to think it won't!

Right now, they probably don't realise that's the case. The publicity around all this is going to encourage perverts who would otherwise not have thought of it. It seems naive to think it won't!

So toilets are going to get more dangerous for women anyway, regardless, is that what you're saying?

So transwomen can use the women's toilets, right? Because it will make no difference to anyone or anything except those transwomen, and to push against it for that reason and that reason alone we have already established would be transphobic, right? Okay good, toilets SOLVED!

There is no burden of proof required to use the ladies now, there would be none under self-ID.

There is no burden of proof but a man going into the female toilets would quite reasonably be challenged - and if he refused to leave and the police were called it would be fairly easy for them to prove that he was male.

I am not "trying hard to assert reasons to be worried about toilets". I think (with phrasing like this) you are trying to present me as a "hysterical woman" or some similar stereotype.

I have reasonable concerns about men in spaces where women are vulnerable.

Anyway, must do some work - but I don't think this is hard to understand.

No. I'm saying that the heavily publicised changes will make it more open to abuse if they come in.

Transwomen are welcome to use female toilets IMO.

Transsexuals who haven't transitioned or dodgy men pretending to be transsexuals are not.

However because of the genuine needs of the first category of people, a third toilet/changing area that's open to anyone should be available.

Transwomen are welcome to use female toilets IMO.
Transsexuals who haven't transitioned or dodgy men pretending to be transsexuals are not.

How do you tell the difference?

I have reasonable concerns about men in spaces where women are vulnerable.

Except you haven't presented any reasonable concerns about toilets.

Transwomen are welcome to use female toilets IMO.

Oh good, so we both disagree with the OP about cocks and vaginas. That's all.

Makes perfect sense to me. Let's keep things as they are and have categories of penis people and vagina people, and all of them can identify as whatever gender identity they like.

How about RTFT.

Mishappening - with my eyes.

And the reality is, if someone is in there who is making me uncomfortable, rather than say anything, for fear of being abused or called a bigot, I'll wait. In discomfort. Because it's always women who end up giving way, isn't it?

What are you banging on about beep? What are you suggesting? Do you want anyone you feel isn't womanly enough to use a separate toilet so you don't have to wonder whether or not they're a perv? Honestly I'm starting to think there should be a separate toilet for anyone who isn't comfortable with normal, everyday public loos. That would solve the whole problem IMO.

What are you actually suggesting and in what way do you think it would be better than what we have now?

Because I'm pretty sure I've demonstrated how separating by biological sex would make no difference at all to women than separating by self-identified gender.