Cocks and Vaginas

[ChaosAndPiss]

AIBU to think we should just change toilets and changing rooms from male and female to just Cocks and Vaginas (or vulvas if you want)

No self identifying bollocks. If you have a dick you go in there. If you don't you go in there. Simple.

We can remove the lady in a dress picture and the man picture and just put pictures of genitals on the doors instead

this is all said in a joking manner. Mostly.

you have to use a bathroom that doesn't reflect your day to day identity

I think we all have to use a bathroom that doesn't reflect our day-to-day identity don't we, when we're out in public? I mean, they can't all have candles, and crocheted ladies on the toilet rolls or high-brow reading material or Chanel No. 5. Lots of Muslims have to use toilets that don't have facilities for washing in.

Now this -
Shall we next start to look at the shape of our heads to decide who is trustworthy?

• as an analogy to "do you have a penis or a vagina?" (with reference to determining biological sex) is batshit.

But Katherina surely it is trustworthiness you are interested in, not literally biological sex? Or are you actually concerned with the genitalia per se of everyone in a public loo?!

Oh look, more accusations of isms and phobias to avoid answering the questions

Personally I think use of toilets should be by biological sex, yes.

Won't anyone tell me how we protect ourselves from men claiming they were born as women?

Oh, I don't personally care for dwelling over other people's genitalia, as long as they are not a fuckwit. I think it is actually an odd thing to care about.
I have never felt public loos are safe places at all but men pretending to be women to use them has never been on my list of concerns.

Actually if it was for those things there would be no validating my gender bullshit going on.

I'm in.... is there a crowdfunder?

thatcoldfeeling did you see the link earlier about men attacking women in women’s spaces ?

Men pretending to be women * to access women’s spaces should concern you.

*i.e men with AGP

Surely it's the opposite of transphobic? It eliminate gender from the whole bathroom debate.

How does eliminating gender from the bathroom debate make things better for women Outy? Given that men could still easily access the women's toilets by saying they're ftm transexuals?

The only thing it would eliminate would be the comfort of transgender individuals, and surely wanting that for that reason alone is transphobic?

I don't understand how gender neutral is the answer anyway.

I mean a gender neutral third space has already been rejected. Surely it defeats the object to just turn all loos onto gender neutral doesn't it?

I'd support a third space if it was a single stand-alone cubicle for use by anyone dissatisfied with their imaginings of who might be next to them in the main toilets of their choosing.

The only thing it would eliminate would be the comfort of transgender individuals, and surely wanting that for that reason alone is transphobic?

Who on earth wants it only for the reason of causing discomfort to trans people?! That would be very transphobic, I agree, but I have never ever seen it suggested so it seems a bit of a straw man.

We have managed fine up til now, there is absolutely no need for self-ID. Transsexual women have been using womens spaces for years. Its predatory males who are the problem here. If the womens becomes a free for all, you would have to be toally kidding yourself to think predators would not take advantage of this. And there are FAR more predatory males around than there are transsexual people

What difference would self-ID make to toilets? Toilets are already on the basis of self-id; always have been. You can challenge someone but you can't ask for "proof".

What difference would it make to predatory males? If you're saying they could put on a dress and say they're transgender, how is that different from them not bothering with the dress and saying they're ftm transgender and were born a girl? Which they could do right now.

And if the predatory males are such a problem, how many of them are pretending to be FTM right now to access women's spaces??

And if the predatory males are such a problem, how many of them are pretending to be FTMright nowto access women's spaces??

Probably very few since they would have to go to a great deal of trouble to go around convincingly as a woman. Have you ever heard of a woman assaulted by a man dressed as a woman? I haven't.
With self ID they can just walk into a women's space in their usual man's gear.

You're not understanding me Glad, right now a man could walk into a ladies toilets in full male gear. And if asked they could say they have a vagina and xx chromosomes but have been living as a man and on male hormones, hence looking like a man. Are you going to get them to drop their pants to check?

So if men were going to use "trans" to get into women's toilets, wouldn't they be doing it already? Where are they all?

Self-ID changes nothing for toilets.

Have you ever heard of a woman assaulted by a man dressed as a woman? I haven't.

Ahem. Woman punched at Speakers' Corner

Toilets Katherina, toilets.

Yes, I know it wasn't what Glad meant. But there are a lot of violent, predatory shitbags out there. Not All Men rah rah rah but Quite A Lot Of Men.

What's that got to do with toilets? I'm not saying NAMALT, I'm saying if they're going to con their way into toilets - which they can already - where are they all?

Oh, and how would that be any different with the xx/xy or penis/vagina toilet suggestion?

I think a lot of them are already doing it. There's a pretty toxic combination of male entitlement and male violence out there. Self-ID just makes it easier.

I think sex-based (a matter of fact) rather than gender-based (which can be a matter of opinion) is easier to challenge.

Unisex toilets - single cubicles with floor to ceiling walls and washbasins inside might be the way to go for all public loos.

Men can go to the loo at home until they learn to behave

Well I think this post just abot sums things up

It's quite amazing how these women's issues keep coming back to men, isn't it??

Self-ID just makes it easier.

It doesn't make any difference at all regarding toilets. Explain to me what difference you think it makes.

I think sex-based (a matter of fact) rather than gender-based (which can be a matter of opinion) is easier to challenge.

In what way is it easier to challenge a man who's dressed like a man who looks like a man but says they're a biological female?