Cocks and Vaginas

[ChaosAndPiss]

AIBU to think we should just change toilets and changing rooms from male and female to just Cocks and Vaginas (or vulvas if you want)

No self identifying bollocks. If you have a dick you go in there. If you don't you go in there. Simple.

We can remove the lady in a dress picture and the man picture and just put pictures of genitals on the doors instead

this is all said in a joking manner. Mostly.

Who said anything about mixed facilities? As things stand there are men's and ladies'. Transgender people (I assume) use the toilet that best fits their gender identity. No women are any worse off, as we've just established. The end.

Alrighty. Thread closed.

@HangtheblessedDJ agreed. In years to come the next generation will be talking about these people in the same way as people now excuse racist old ladies "they're from a different time, they didn't know any better!" It's like history repeating itself except it's not about the gays or black people, it's transgender, and if you're reading this and think it's aimed at you then you know I'm right and you should be ashamed.

You maybe joking OP but I like it

I think precisely the opposite. When we have adults who were medicated out of puberty and given mutilating surgery which they bitterly regret, when they can't have children, that's when we'll look back and say how horrific it was that society jumped on this trans bandwagon as a response to homophobia - which is what trans is I'm afraid. It's a horror of not living up to the expected norms of your sex, so pretending to be the other sex as a way of fitting in. We should be telling young people thay boys and girls come in all different packages with different likes and dislikes, that girls don't have to like princesses and boys don't have to like football etc It doesn't change who they are. And if you're a young girl attracted to other girls, you can be a lesbian - you don't have to pretend you're male to make it acceptable.

But what you can do is report absolutely anyone at all behaving inappropriately in public toilets.

There's a whole load of behaviour which is threatening, creepy or discomforting but utterly deniable if challenged. Staring, standing too close, refusing to move... All playground bully tactics for a good reason.

I know some pubs that now have genderless toilets/cubicles: that would sort out the problem wouldn't it?

Plus, at the much much more minor end of the scale, men's toilets stink. The piss and shit is much stronger smelling and there is always piss on the floor. Every pub I've ever worked in, I've dreaded having to go into the "gents" to check everyone has left for the night etc.

Another reason for men to use their own toilets until they learn some manners - yet again a tiny minority ruining it for everyone!

Yawn.

Seriously, this again?

Nothing I love more than listening to the bigoted, hate filled opinions of people that have zero real life experience of the trans community.

Can you find an example of bigotry or hatred and quote it please, kubex? Thx.

Under self ID, as you already know (because you have had this explained to you before as well), any male could choose to say that they are self IDing as a woman, without changing one thing, not even their name...and if females challenged their presence, the females could be legally guilty of a hate crime.

Actually it wouldn't be a hate crime because "hate crime" only refers to an aggravating factor in an actual crime. Go and learn something.

And if you'd read my posts you'd see what I'm saying is that without self-ID right now a man could access women's toilets without changing one thing by saying he is a female to male transsexual. Are you following me?

You seem to think all I should know about this is the misinformation spread on mumsnet. Perhaps that all you know about it, but it is not all I do.

So men will abuse no matter what, so lets remove all safeguards as rules can be broken anyway, basically?

I really doubt many men would pass as FtM, but I do see what you are saying

Loos is the least of my worries tbh, as unisex could work fine as long as it was done properly. My issue is changing rooms, rape crisis centres, prisons, sport and such. none of which have such an 'easy' answer.

Also I have no issue at all with post op transsexual people using the areas that correspond to the sex they are emulating. But I know some women do have issues with this too.

I'm not saying that thegoals, I'm saying there's no need to stoke this sentiment that transpeople getting to use the toilet of their choice is somehow opening the door to predatory men, when in reality the door would be no more open than it is now. I'm saying it doesn't serve women to deny transpeople access to their choice of toilet, and that the only reason I can see to do so would be intolerance.

I agree there are no easy answers on other topics.

But this is toilets.

Trans people can already use the toilet of their choice. Transsexual people have been doing so for ever, and women turn a blind eye, even if the person does not 'pass' well, as its clear that they are trans. When men start coming in, just as men, there is a big difference.

Transmen who pass already use the mens loos. As no-one is any the wiser. Same as transwomen who pass (and some who don't) use the womens.

So even now, if an obvious guy is hanging around in the womens, its dodgy.

But yes, loos are not really a problem. But I would feel extremely uncomfortable if there was just a regular guy stood in there watching me. Even though I am behind a door.

This is why I think businesses should spend a bit of cash to make loos unisex, but properly. as in single rooms, contained sink and loo, kind of like the disabled ones now.

But yes, loos are not really a problem compared to other sex segregated areas. That should be.

I'm not sure what you think is going to change. Are you saying men are going to start coming in just because they can say they're trans? Because they already can. Do they?

Yup, loos are a total non-issue.

But that's why threads like this one look hateful.

I think what will change is womens ability to complain about an obvious man hanging round in the womens loos.

Men can say they are transmen now, but passing transmen do not use the ladies. So unless this guy who is saying he is a transman looks female, then that excuse will not wash.

I really see no need to change how things are now. What need IS there?

I have a transsexual family member and she cannot see what the need is either. This whole 'self-ID' thing is silly. She says anyone who is transsexual can get a GRC under current rules anyway, as they have sex dysphoria and will be having treatment so will be able to get the medical declarations, so this 'it will make trans peoples lives easier' does not wash.

Personally I see no need for the GRC anyway. The reason for it was so that transsexual people could marry someone of the same sex (it came in before equal marriage) and for pension rights. But both of these are rectified now, so the original reason for GRCs is moot.

Things are fine right now, with the honour system that women have going on for sex segregated areas, surely. Even in changing rooms, women turn a blind eye to transsexual people (if they do not pass, not many do, if they pass then there is no issue at all as noone knows) but would complain if there was an obvious bloke there. What exactly is wrong with this? All this self-ID stuff will do is force women to be uncomfortable, or stay at home as that pervy guy could follow you in and you cannot complain. It will also be detrimental to transsexual people, who currently use female areas to escape that pervy guy. As he can follow them in also.

This 'transmen' thing is a bit of a red herring. As I said passing transmen already use male areas as they are women and know that their presence in a womans area would make women uncomfortable as they would be read as male.

Women would have exactly the same ability to complain about an "obvious man" in the ladies' loos under self-ID as they'd ever had. That's the point; you're saying nothing needs to change but in regards to toilets nothing would change. People are saying predatory men would suddenly have a pass into the ladies but they'd only have the same opportunity to lie their way in that they already have, women would have the same ability to challenge it, but ultimately no-one's ever going to set up a toilet with full-on body checks on entry.

I'm not raising transmen as anything other than an example of how predatory men could already claim to be trans to use women's toilets without even having to put on a dress. You or I could complain about someone we thought was a man, we could be right, we could be wrong, ultimately if they say they're a woman what is anyone going to do if they're not being shifty? And if they are being shifty there is always something you can do. That wouldn't change with self-ID.

Self-ID means nothing to toilets. It can't possibly mean forcing women to feel more uncomfortable except that it might draw to their attention that they've probably been sharing with transwomen all along and that men could legitimately lie their way in this whole time and noone could ever have done an awful lot about it.

that it might draw to their attention that they've probably been sharing with transwomen all along

Do you think women are unaware that they have been sharing with transwomen? I think women are more than aware, and give a 'pass' so to speak as they reckoning that these people have dysphoria and have a hard enough time already, and if they feel uncomfortable they just swallow it rather than make a scene.

Imo a transsexual woman is very different to a man. Though both are male, obviously

In plain terms, most people are fine with actual transsexual people. Its these new 'worship my female penis' types that are the issue. Along with transactivists who are fighting for law changes that would be detrimental to women and transsexual people alike.

I don't really know why I am debating on here though, given I don't really see toilets as an issue anyway. Its everything else. Loos really are the thin end of the wedge. As I said its stuff such as changing rooms, prisons, sport etc that bother me. And noone seems to actually have an answer about those areas, beyond 'you are transphobes for discussing this' or dragging it back to loos. (not saying you are doing this, as this thread IS about loos, but in any other thread)