to ask for trans threads to stay in Feminism?

[yawning801]

Just that, really. This isn't meant to start a debate, or be goady in any way. I've just hidden the Feminism board to avoid the trans threads but they're seeping into AIBU (like this one I suppose ) and other places too and I'm trying to avoid them! Can we keep trans threads in Feminism please? TIA

My very first You are being VVVVVVVU.

Defenceless fragile women? What, like women who’ve escaped domestic violence and gone into a refuge only to find there’s men working there. Or a rape victim being forced to consent to an intimate examination by a man? Or an eight year old girl having to get showered next to a 45 year old letch who’s managed to self identify his way into the women’s changing rooms because he’s a woman? Or a lesbian who finds herself in a situation where she discovers her new ‘girlfriend’ actually has a penis and goes ahead and rapes her, but she can’t object of course because a) women can’t be rapists and b) she’s a vile transphobic if she misgenders him and won’t allow him into her knickers. Some people might not class female prisoners as vulnerable, but many have mental health problems and come from backgrounds of being sexually and physically abused. Do they deserve to share their cells and shower blocks and living spaces with male sex offenders? These trans women in prisons appear to be in there for sex offences against real women oddly enough.

Or the any number of misogynistic autogynophiles who’re rubbing their hands at the thought of entering our spaces and those of our children - are they defenceless and fragile?

This isn’t about genuine trans people who just want to go about their business quietly and respectfully.

This is about misogynistic men who seek to destroy safe spaces for women.

Another one saying that these thread should not be confined to feminism

But i do think there should be a warning in the title...might stop some of the whining

Some of it conjures up a vision of defenceless fragile women unable to cope in the real world
Good.
Hold that thought
Now consider autistic children who are struggling in the real world being told in schools that if they don't feel like they "fit in" with their body's and society's expectations for how they should dress and behave, all that can be fixed by changing their name and taking hormones and getting sterilized!

But no the vulnerable party here is the grown ass men MRAs Trans rights activists

Where is this hatred?
I've never seen a transphobic or hateful comment on mumsnet.
If there are any on this thread or elsewhere I'd love to know...
what I see is debate and disagreement becoming the new PC thing to label as "phobic".
I have no issue with transgender people.
It would be silly if I did, as I am a transsexual.

I am not transphobic.

I do not support self ID.

I do not support Autogynephilies in a bathroom or other sex segregated area unless they are in the one that aligns with their sex.

I do not support biological men walking into health clinics complaining they cannot access cervical smears.

I do not support biological women walking into health clinics complaining they can't have a prostate exam. (Though I've not heard of this happening)

I do not support non biological women/men taking up jobs that are sex specific (women's officer/men's officer, rape crisis advocates)

I do not support any transsexual or transgender person, or someone who self ID'd as a man/woman/toaster 5 minutes ago, terrifying a woman or man in a sex specific service.

Are you going to call me transphobic, too...?
*possible Tw.
I have been raped by a man (while he repeatedly mocked me and degraded me, for being trans).
I have had a pint glass smashed across my face.
I have been groped and objectified (and no it wasn't hot, fun or enduring), sometimes I believe my status as a transsexual is what fuels that, if not a reason I am targeted.
I have had real discrimination (in job interviews for non sex specific roles, for instance) and my career has suffered for it.
Low- mid level bullying is a daily occurrence and I wouldn't be surprised if I am attacked again one day.
My ex delighted in using horrific terms specific to my transsexualism to abuse and degrade me.
They are the transphobics.
Do not dare call scared women TRANSPHOBIC. Do not dare in my name tell them they must put up and shut up otherwise they are horrible bigots. Not in my name you won't! You may think you are defending me by fighting for self ID but you stand AGAINST me and many others like me if you allow this to happen.

I want people to debate, I want to be part of the debate. I want people to question, argue. And then agree. There will never be a peaceful and fair resolution (whatever that may be) if we all shut down the voices of people we do not agree with.

I agree many here are so open minded their brains have fallen out. But go on,
Call me transphobic. I fucking dare you.
Sincerely,
A MTF transsexual who did it before it was cool.

By seeking to put this in one easy to hide place you wish to say "no" to the debate, the conversation and ultimately the solution.
We all need to take part in this discussion.
The screams of hatred and "just stick the debate somewhere I don't have to see it because I don't like it" are just another attempt to stick it in a neat little box and throw it out of mind.
The changes that are coming soon to our very own legal system may be irreversible and may cause great damage.
Do you all really want to turn your backs on that???
In the name of being "liberal and accepting?"

The changes that are coming soon to our very own legal system may be irreversible

This is a strange thing to say, what makes you think this?

Bishybarnybee - Some of it conjures up a vision of defenceless fragile women unable to cope in the real world - that absolute hysteria that we might unknowingly be getting changed in a cubicle next door to a penis. It's like we are reverting to Victorian maidens

Oh you mean like those 'hysterical' Victorian maidens who got the first women's toilets built so they could participate in public life? Those women were nails.

Why a woman would choose to make it the defining issue of her feminism, I cannot imagine.

It's not a defining issue but it is a crisis which threatens to make any other feminist issue we need to focus and campaign on utterly meaningless and impossible even to articulate.

The government are proposing a law that would allow any man to legally become a woman by signing a form. All other major parties are backing this. This obviously has serious implications for women and we will have this debate.

Wow. Powerful stuff, Silverturtles. Thank you. I'm truly sorry you've been subjected to this shit.

YABU I only learned about the issue from an AIBU thread. At that point I didn't even realise there was feminism board. I've learned so much from the wise women of mumsnet about this very important issue.

Imagine if all the people who didn't agree that women should be allowed the vote/a mortgage/to wear trousers at Work assumed that because they weren't personally affected, they'd prefer not to be bothered by such nonsense.

There is no hate. If any hateful speech appears it's swiftly and clearly dealt with.

I've not met a single woman on here who doesn't sympathise with trans people. What they and I and many like me are hoping for is that their need doesn't supersede ours. There is room for us all but transactivists are cannibalising women's spaces. The fact that no one is allowed to discuss it without death or rape threats is extremely worrying.

Xulishesthepilot

Once it gets through, I can't see it being undone without a lot more work than it took (on the side of so called "TRA's") to get it done.
Have you seen the venom spewed at public events and such, by some so called TRAs? The violence?
Now imagine self ID becomes reality and then someone tries to block or reverse it...
I'll leave the rest up to you.
But I'd say at that point it's pretty irreversible because of the potential backlash and no one is then going to want to lose the transgender vote.
Also, another good point is... how many parties are against self ID? I can't think of any.

Welcome to Transnet.

@SilverTurtles you have voiced an incredibly strong argument.

SilverTurtles

Hear hear Efrig. I too wondered why there were so many trans prison threads with hundreds of comments. I wasn't interested enough to click in them. Once i did, i, a staunch trans ally (of the 'live and let live/vulnerable trans' type) was horrified at the new ideology. I very quickly peak transed. Trans activism is now led by fetishists and misogynists and homophobes, using people-pleasing women allies to drive their agenda. Wake up if you're one of these people.

@TenancyTroublesAgain I imagine had mumsnet been around during the 1920s it would have been 'welcome to SuffragetteNet'

Women have been fighting for a fair space for a long time.

It still hasn't stopped being necessary.

So a law will be passed that sees children perved on in changing rooms, women attacked in public toilets, female sports irradicated, kids sterilised in schools, and no-one's going to dare repeal it. Right.

The end of the world is nigh.

SilverTurtles You are one of the old school transsexuals with whom we have happily shared our spaces with for years. I am sorry you have been through so much pain in one lifetime.

My argument is with the new wave of TRA's who want to destroy woman and all our hard won rights.

Xulishesthepilot
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't actually see anyone fighting against it now?
In any case, if self ID came in and allowed anyone to have a GRC, their crimes and behaviour wouldn't be under the umbrella of trans it would be under the umbrella of their chosen sex. Presuming MTF...
So we'd likely see a spike of "woman" on woman sexual assault.
Woman on child sexual assault.
Woman on woman assaults in public toilets... on and on and on.
How are you, in that case, going to be able to tell the statistical difference between trans crimes and female crime? And could it not be argued that it was in fact biological women doing this..? Which would make the argument for repealing it weaker, surely?
Add in a bit of violence, some screaming about injustice and bigotry and a bit more hijacking of the LGB movement and you have a shit show at the very least.

Right now we have.
Kids being taught incorrect shite about transitioning in school. By qualified teachers. As part of the fucking curriculum. Pink brain and blue brain, anyone? Sorry, am I suddenly a man again if I don't feel like wearing heels tomorrow? But then am I a woman again if I wear pink on Wednesday? No... no I'm not. But look up the curriculum indorsed shite flying around British schools right now.
More and more young adults coming forward to say they were pushed to transition.
Transitioning overruling gay rights ("you're not a lesbian, you're just a straight trans man!")
Women being called transphobic for trying to open up debate
A man with no GRC standing as women's officer and fighting for self ID within the party they represent (let's not forget the misuse of data, threats, rape jokes and misogynistic comments)....
Who's to say how far this will go??
There's no sign of the madness stopping just yet...

The funny thing is, all of us now, even the fed up transdout women, have benefitted and continue to benefit from all the feminist activism that has gone before. All the hard fighting by women before the word feminist was invented. We’d still be treated like domestic animals/servants with no rights at all if it weren’t for feminism. You might hate the word, hate the idea, hate the hairy legged stereotype, but you don’t hate the outcome. How many of you are divorced, using contraception, living independently, are educated, driving, running your own finances?

Where do you suppose all these rights came from?

Aren’t our spaces and our rights worth fighting for?

@SilverTurtles Great set of posts.

I'm honestly gobsmacked at some of the comments in this thread, as well as the premise of the thread itself.

Do those of you who find these threads boring/annoying etc really think this doesn't impact you?

That it's not your responsibility to speak up about children being "counselled" and "contaginated" into taking drugs that render them sterile and have serious other side effects. Then being encouraged to have invasive surgery.

Not to care that vulnerable women in shelters and prison are at risk from predatory men with a history of abuse against women are already facing the possibility or actuality respectively of men demanding access to their estate.

To be disinterested in the fact that women are already being hounded out of political parties and being silenced because they don't believe a man is or can ever be a woman.

This is not about transphobia.

It's about equality.

It's about not allowing the erosion of rights women have long struggled and still struggle to gain and maintain.

I'm an atheist and that doesn't make me "phobic" or "bigoted" against people of faith.

Being against self ID and critical of the concept of gender vs sex does equally not make me a transphobe.

Not giving a shit about this issue does however make someone downright naive imho.

So whilst you hide another thread and sigh at the trans traffic on MN maybe do so with a bit of grace and thanks that at least some women and trans people are fighting to protect your rights - even if you can't be fucked to do it or so bought into the trans dogma you can see past the self indulgence of your own virtue signalling.

No. YABU.

I didn’t appreciate being taught about ‘the female penis’ in a ‘feminism’ lecture at Uni last year, and I don’t want my football loving daughter to be told her identity is male and therefore she should be sterilised. No one is making these things up.

I’m going to the woman’s place meet in Birmingham next month to stand up and be counted - if you don’t know why this is important (this is to anyone) maybe come along just to listen?

I’m autistic and grew up as a tomboy. I’m happily married and have two children. The thought of someone like me being chemically sterilised and my body permanently ruined fills me with horror.