To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

[Lilyyulelog]

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

If transwomen are women then what is there in legislation to distinguish them,and allow rape crisis centres/ sports/whatever to "get round" any problems?
So transwomen are women,in every way,indistinguishable from any other women,except when they aren't .
How does that work,then?

Or do you see women and their needs and rights being pushed aside by men?

Pfft, if women's rights are being eroded by men it's by the men and women who don't provide safe and secure changing facilities, don't enact the exemptions necessary under the law to protect women in rape crisis centres, make bad choices about who to put in what prison, don't adequately staff and police toilets, and the men and women on here who deflect attention from THEM, excuse their behaviour on the grounds of "budget or fear" and instead make it the problem of a small number of transpeople. If women aren't safe in public establishments with other individuals then turn your anger towards the places failing to make them safe!

Speedy85: That’s not quite right Daidydrip. The exemptions are separate to the process which is used for legally changing sex/gender.

Happy to be corrected, when I give out information I want it to be correct. Apologies for the misleading info previously.

This also includes pupils so my 13yo dd could find herself sharing with a 16yo natal male in a twin room.

I don't believe that would happen. Out of interest, would you mind your 13 yo sharing with a 16 yo lesbian?

"They have communal changing rooms with cubicle at my leisure centre already. I have never considered it an issue."

You're alright Jack, then?

Dungeondragon15: Out of interest, would you mind your 13 yo sharing with a 16 yo lesbian?

Not one little bit.

Its already happening. Your beliefs are behind actual events.

How is the comment about lesbians relevant? Lesbians are women.

5 pages in and no one can explain what makes a biological man become a biological women, or why TIMs feelings are more important.

We segregate based on sex, not gender or orientation.

infinite it is already written in the legislation that there are certain situations where you must divulge your change of gender, such as sports, hospitals etc. That isn't going anywhere.

Xulishesthepilot
Can you provide a link to that as it is the opposite information that is provided elsewhere.

They’re not.

But xulishes - a changing room with only women IS a safe space

What bothers me is the thought of perverts using the new law to gain access to them. I don't see why gyms and shops etc should have to redesign their entire changing room system to accommodate a group of men who haven't even made the first effort to transition!

To be clear, i wouldn't mind at all if someone who has transitioned fully was in there. India willoughby is a dick, but India is no threat to women in my view (not physically anyway - the constant grandstanding may not help women's rights). It's the people who still enjoy using their dicks and the people who will abuse it that I don't want in there.

The lengths some people will go to, in order to be seen as "right on," including throwing women's rights under the bus, never ceases to amaze me.

Why would I want to be seen as "right on" on an annonymous forum? As I said, I don't particularly support self ID. However, I do agree with legislation and other changes in society that helps to prevent discrimination against transgender people. Exceptions can be put in place to make sure that vulnerable people are protected. I think it is possible to do both although it is obviously complex.

Out of interest, would you mind your 13 yo sharing with a 16 yo lesbian?

A 16yo lesbian does not present the same risks. Lets start with the biggest there isn't a risk of pregnancy

I don't know Dungeon - why would you?

A 16yo lesbian does not present the same risks. Lets start with the biggest there isn't a risk of pregnancy

I realise that. I was just interested!

Dungeondragon15 I do agree with legislation and other changes in society that helps to prevent discrimination against transgender people.

Ahh, we agree on something. I totally agree trans woman should not be discriminated against. I just don't want biological woman and girls thrown under the bus in the process.

Plus lesbians don't have the same enormous advantage in terms of muscle and bone development that boys have. Even if a lesbian were to try and sexually assault another girl - and the stats don't exactly bear that out in the same way that they do crimes committed by males against females - the girl would have a decent chance of fighting back. No chance against a much stronger male.

How could you say you don't agree with men competing with women in sport but not see that this is the same thing from a physical risk perspective?!

I don't know Dungeon - why would you?

Definitely not. Many people do object though (one of my dc is gay as are many of her friends and plenty of people have an issue).

" I do agree with legislation and other changes in society that helps to prevent discrimination against transgender people."

Me, too.

Do you know what "prevent discrimination" means? It is providing the same rights and opportunities to transgender people as everyone else. It's not having to agree that they are something they are not and suffer the consequences, just to make them happy.

Let's take a really concrete example. Near where I live there is a little community run outdoor swimming pool (i.e. charitable status, staffed by volunteers, no money swishing around to completely revamp their changing rooms). It is a lovely place, but, being of its era (roughly 1950s at a guess) it has two modest sized rooms - completely open plan - for changing in. It's also very busy in summer, so were you to put in curtained cubicles, you'd drop the capacity of the changing rooms to about a quarter of their previous capacity - not really practical.

So, Freda comes in and removes sundress to reveal fully intact male anatomy.

Are women supposed to pretend they don't care to pander to Freda's desire to be treated as a woman?
Is the community pool supposed to go bankrupt because it can't provide single occupancy cubicles at no cost to what is a community organisation staffed by volunteers?

And - the million dollar question which none of our "you're so bigotted" posters seem to be able to answer - in what sense is Freda a woman?

Speedy how is it not right?

If SelfID means a man can legally become a woman by filling in a form, then his sex is legally recognised to be a woman.

So if he were then to apply to work in a rape crisis centre, the rape crisis centre cannot use sex exemption as his sex is woman.

So they are not seperate?

TeChers never share bedrooms with students on residential trips, by the way.

Yes, sorry, it was me who posted upthread about not sharing rooms with girls. I posted in a hurry and it got all garbled on the way out. In my head I was thinking 'male' rather than men. And I was thinking of the residentials I went on as a primary age child where a couple of teenagers would share a room with us in order to provide supervision and reassurance.

InaConfusedState That's what I thought when I Posted what I did, so will be interested in the response from Speedy as I'm curious to know what's what in this regard.

upstart the requirements regarding sport have their own provision the act itself making it clear you have to divulge the change. Below is a link to the law society explaining some of the further exceptions.

www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/working-with-transgender-employees/