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AIBU?

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Original poster

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

439 replies

Lilyyulelog · 22/02/2018 21:40

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

OP posts:
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8
Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:07

daisy and inaconfused self-id just means that in order to get a gender recognition certificate an applicant need only fill out a form, or "self identify" to get their certificate. The certificate STILL comes with the legal provisos it already has, such as disclosure under certain circumstances. See previous link.

Bluelady · 23/02/2018 13:08

Glad I went out and missed this, my head would be very sore indeed. How can people be so obtuse? How can anyone with half a brain agree with half the stuff being posted here? A man can say he's a woman until he's blue in the face. He's not. And should have no access to women's rights or spaces. How bloody hard is it to get your head round?

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 13:10

So the declaration is just for sport. Men are competing as women in women's sports right now. A declaration isn't stopping them.
Someone with a GRC has changed sex for all other purposes.
Someone who is proposing to change sex has the same legal protection.

A declaration is not needed generally, such as when working for Rape Crisis or in a DV shelter.

A multiple rapist is in a woman's prison. Would they force a Muslim or Romany woman to shower with Martin Ponting? If not why should any other women have to?
This isn't working for women. Not in the UK and not in Canada.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:12

Shall I also tell them they can't use our Bic Lady Pens "for her"?

Because when we actually NEED his and hers, the law will still protect that. But when we don't, it's about as feminist as a bic lady pen.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:13

You didn't read the link then upstart. Seriously, Google the exceptions. Residential environments are there too. Have fun.

Speedy85 · 23/02/2018 13:13

Speedy how is it not right? If SelfID means a man can legally become a woman by filling in a form, then his sex is legally recognised to be a woman.

The current law (the Gender Recongnition Act 2004) basically says:

A) There is a formal process to go through to get a GRC; and

B) Everyone who has a GRC is effectively treated as being that new sex/gender except for the purposes of:
I) Certain things set out in the Act (including working at rape crisis centres) and
II) any other laws which make it clear that they only apply to people who were born a particular sex/gender.

So you can change A (ie the process for getting a GRC) without changing B (the effects and limitations of a GRC).

I can see why they get confused because a lot of people who want to change A also want to change B.

Hope that helps. I can post to the legislation of people are interested.

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 13:13

Xulishesthepilot

20 November 2015

This content is currently under review. Learn more about our changes to practice notes

puckingfixies · 23/02/2018 13:14

Dragondungeon15, for your daughter's sake, please do more reading on this. TRAs maintain that lesbians are transphobic if they won't have relationships with transwomen - including penetrative sex with their 'ladydicks'. Google cotton ceiling.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 13:14

It's not having to agree that they are something they are not and suffer the consequences, just to make them happy.

Well that would depend on what your definition of "suffering the consequences" is.

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 13:15

But the protections have already been removed, now. Not in some mythical 'they'll never let it happen' future.

Its pointless saying 'it will be ok'. There is a multiple rapist in a women's prison, right now.
Womens sports are being dominated by trans women. Its already happened.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:16

daisy

The Equality Act 2010 makes exceptions for certain actions, which would otherwise be discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment - here are some examples but this is not a comprehensive list:

The job really requires someone not to be transsexual - an occupational requirement.
When positive action is taken to help the employment of a transsexual person to achieve a more diverse workforce.
An organisation may indirectly discriminate if the discrimination is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (objectively justified).

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 13:18

The permitted exceptions are being ignored with support form Maria Miller, the tories and the Labour Party.

All Women Shortlists are allowed and Labour have ignored that.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 13:19

Dragondungeon15, for your daughter's sake, please do more reading on this. TRAs maintain that lesbians are transphobic if they won't have relationships with transwomen - including penetrative sex with their 'ladydicks'

I don't think my daughter will be that interested in their opinion to be honest.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:20

Its pointless saying 'it will be ok'. There is a multiple rapist in a women's prison, right now.
Womens sports are being dominated by trans women. Its already happened.

Nothing's been "removed". If transwomen are in one prison or another it's because the authorities have chosen to move them. If they're in sport with some huge advantage it's because the governing bodies have set lax every requirements. It is NOT because their hands are tied.

If you don't like it it isn't the fault of the act to protect transpeople.

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 13:20

Xulishesthepilot We have no idea of all the changes that could happen if the GRA is changed. TRA are screaming for changes that will make large swathes of the EA null and void. WA are already reviewing their policy of not allowing men to work in their shelters.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:20

Entry not every

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 13:22

OK, there's clearly no point in trying to discuss this with you any further. You've decided women should shut up and put up, and thats the end of it.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:23

Oh FFS, let's imagine what terrible things will happen if these terrible people get their terrible way. Or how about we talk about what's actually proposed.

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 13:25

UpstartCrow Totally agree, my blood pressure is through the roof. There's none so blind as those who will not see.

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 13:25

We dont have to imagine anything, they are already happening. You are minimising women being forced to shower in prison with male bodied prisoners.

PencilsInSpace · 23/02/2018 13:26

I'm not convinced by that link at all Xulishesthepilot. It says,

There is no requirement for a transgender and transsexual person to tell their employer about their gender reassignment status and questions about a possible transgender status should not be asked unless one of the exceptions (see below) applies.

This implies that it would be OK to ask in certain very limited circumstances (the exceptions everyones too scared to use in the first place). It certainly doesn't say the trans person has to disclose, even if they are asked. And this is a best practice guide, not the actual legislation. Point to where it says in the actual legislation that it is OK for an employer to ask because I missed that bit.

This is accurate to the best of my knowledge:

You should only identify a person's transsexual status if you have permission to do so. 'Outing' a person as transsexual is classed as direct discrimination under the Equality Act 2010 and could result in criminal charges under the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

Disclosure of the fact that an employee has obtained a gender recognition certificate is a criminal act subject to a fine.

As far as I can see, the EA sex based exceptions are useless where a person has a GRC, and hence a new birth certificate that says 'female', and chooses not to disclose that they are trans.

beepthemeep · 23/02/2018 13:28

How about we talk about what's actually HAPPENING.

How about you go and look at the women who trained their hearts out in weight lifting, only to be beaten by laurel hubbard?

How about you go and look at the high school girls who ran their hearts out, only to be beaten by andraya yearwood? What will you say to them if andraya gets a scholarship for winning all the races, despite having the biological advantages of being born male?

How do you think they would feel about the law?

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 13:30

No upstart, I'm putting responsibility for that on the people who actually have the power to change it, if you're so keen to protect those women's rights. They have the power in the law. How about starting a thread about them?

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 13:30

Oh FFS, let's imagine what terrible things will happen if these terrible people get their terrible way. Or how about we talk about what's actually proposed.

They don't want to do that though as then they won't have an excuse for their bigotry.

hooochycoo · 23/02/2018 13:30

I know it’a Contentious argument with passion and anger on both side, but continually saying trans women aren’t women is making these threads offensive to trans people, who see it as misgendering and denying them existence.

It’s great that these threads call for a debate on a really important subject, and I for one am grateful to them for opening my eyes to the possible problems to the proposed changes to the GRA . I’m definately concerned and am writing to my representatives and making sure I do the Scottish government consultation. Also spreading the word among friends.

But this awareness raising is done a disservice by the continuing transphobia. The trans community consider it incredibly offensive when you say « trans women are not women. « , continuing to say it is losing the argument , the rest of what you say isn’t even read because you’ve already been as offensive as you can. Regardless of your opinion you can surely see that that’s not the way to encourage debate, dialogue and compromise?

Be a bit cleverer and chose your words wiser.