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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

439 replies

Lilyyulelog · 22/02/2018 21:40

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 12:28

FFS there are some problems with self-ID but they're not insurmountable. There are exceptions within the equality act which allow you to discriminate where necessary; sports, residential care etc., or in fact in any scenario where it is a proportionate means to a legitimate end.

Some people on this thread really DO need to educate themselves on what self-ID means because, whilst not perfect, it isn't the inescapable end-of-days some of you are making out.

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 12:29

Then you really aren't up to date on women's sports, women's prisons, womens psychiatric units, or whats been happening in Canada.

CoteDAzur · 23/02/2018 12:30

"All the shop changing rooms I've been to in recent years have cubicles so can't envisage a situation where my daughter would have to change in front of "big bearded ladies and their ladycocks"

How about communal changing rooms in swimming pools?

Think about it for a minute before dismissing it and you will see the problem.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 12:31

We're not in Canada.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 12:32

But you were just advocating that rape crisis centres should question candidates who present as trans women to figure out who had “ominous reasons” for being there!

I didn't say that they should ask specific questions about why someone was transgender. I presume that they would have more clever ways of ascertaining whether someone was suitable or not suitable for the job (for whatever reason).

dadshere · 23/02/2018 12:33

They are women because they say they are, obviously. I am now choosing to identify as a horse and I intend to gallop around the highways and byways of this country pooping on the road as is my right! Next week I may identify as an airbus and try a takeoff from heathrow!

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 12:33

How about communal changing rooms in swimming pools?

They have communal changing rooms with cubicle at my leisure centre already. I have never considered it an issue.

beepthemeep · 23/02/2018 12:33

I think you live on a different planet to everyone else, dungeon.

Many many shops and swimming pools etc don't have cubicles for changing. If the law changes, your daughter could well have to get changed in front of someone who looks like this and who may have very dodgy motives indeed for being there. You might be thrilled for your daughter to be changing in front of that person, and if they are alone in there to take the risk that nothing happens to her, but I'd rather not take that risk for mine, thanks. Not when it's perfectly easy to have "male", "female" and "everyone" changing rooms.

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 12:33

Xulishesthepilot: Some people on this thread really DO need to educate themselves on what self-ID means because, whilst not perfect, it isn't the inescapable end-of-days some of you are making out.

I don't see anything positive within self ID that benefits woman, quite the opposite actually. I also see woman from other cultures and religions being very, very badly effected by self ID. Therefore, I will continue to speak out about it. I hope that's ok with you?

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 12:34

Rape crisis centres can use exemptions in the law to get round it if they feel they need to.

BaronessEllaSaturday · 23/02/2018 12:35

joins in with banging head on desk.

You never responded about my 13yo sharing with a 16yo

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 12:35

FFS there are some problems with self-ID but they're not insurmountable. There are exceptions within the equality act which allow you to discriminate where necessary; sports, residential care etc., or in fact in any scenario where it is a proportionate means to a legitimate end.

Exactly.

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 12:36

Dungeondragon15
They have communal changing rooms with cubicle at my leisure centre already. I have never considered it an issue.

I bet there aren't many Muslim or Romany women using them.

beepthemeep · 23/02/2018 12:36

"With cubicles".

Well, guess what, dragon - Neither my members gym nor my council swimming pool has cubicles in the ladies changing room. So if a man can self-identify as a woman and walk in there, what are my options?

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 12:36

Xulishesthepilot: Rape crisis centres can use exemptions in the law to get round it if they feel they need to.

They can now they won't be able to if self ID becomes law.

busyboysmum · 23/02/2018 12:38

It is impossible to change your biology. No man can ever be biologically a woman. Therefore trans women are men they are not women.

We had a client come into the office the other day wanting to change his name. He presented as a balding middle aged man with no facial hair whatsoever. He explained that he felt he'd been pressurised into transitioning into being a woman and that it all been a huge mistake. He was approaching a milestone birthday and for his birthday he wanted to put things right. He said he'd upset everybody in his life - all his family and his friends and he really regretted everything that had been through. How can we say that this man was ever a woman? He was never a woman he was always just a confused man.

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 12:38

Why do you think that Daisy?

beepthemeep · 23/02/2018 12:38

Xulishes - how many of them are going to be brave enough or have the funding to do that? If men like muscato can insist on a place in a women's shelter; if men like Huntley can insist on being transferred to a women's prison, do you really see that happening in practice?

Or do you see women and their needs and rights being pushed aside by men?

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 12:38

Many many shops and swimming pools etc don't have cubicles for changing.

They need to change then.. It's not impossible just as it isn't impossible to have exceptions within an act to prevent transgender discrimination.

ShotsFired · 23/02/2018 12:39

Well, there are none so blind as they who won't see.

Thank god there are more of us who are willing to see, and hopefully stop this coming to pass, for the benefit of all women and to the detriment of nobody.

You're welcome, too. As are your daughters, nieces, mothers, grand daughters and any other religious, vulnerable or simply actively choosing not to agree woman in your life who will be affected.

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 12:41

Those of us who do need or want sex segregated services, sports and spaces should not be overruled by those of you who don't care amd cant see the problem.

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 12:41

Xulishesthepilot: Why do you think that Daisy?

If self ID becomes law, any man can decide he is a woman and according to law he will be. That means if rape crisis won't have the option to deny him as man as they can now as he will legally be a woman.

Speedy85 · 23/02/2018 12:41

I didn't say that they should ask specific questions about why someone was transgender. I presume that they would have more clever ways of ascertaining whether someone was suitable or not suitable for the job (for whatever reason).

Such as? I can’t think of anything except psychic abilities. And as I linked to above, there has already been at least one example of a man posing as a transwoman to take advantage.

The exemptions currently exist and could continue even if self ID is brought in. But those exemptions need to be used and strengthened. Some women’s rape charities are thinking of hiring transwomen even though they don’t have to, and I am against this.

Speedy85 · 23/02/2018 12:43

If self ID becomes law, any man can decide he is a woman and according to law he will be. That means if rape crisis won't have the option to deny him as man as they can now as he will legally be a woman.

That’s not quite right Daidydrip. The exemptions are separate to the process which is used for legally changing sex/gender.

beepthemeep · 23/02/2018 12:43

Honestly, dragon? You think it's all the swimming pools and shops that should change because of a few shouty men who haven't transitioned but want to be treated as women???? Shock

Quite on top of all the arguments set out eloquently on this thread, who do you think is going to pay for that? If it's council/publicly owned, the taxpayer. If it's privately owned, the consumer will, ultimately. To benefit whom, exactly?

It will also mean fewer people can use them, because cubicles take up much more space.

The lengths some people will go to, in order to be seen as "right on," including throwing women's rights under the bus, never ceases to amaze me.