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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

439 replies

Lilyyulelog · 22/02/2018 21:40

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

OP posts:
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CoteDAzur · 23/02/2018 09:13

"This new definition is about personality, interests and feelings."

The problem with that definition, aside from the fact that it is actually wrong, is that it means many of us including yours truly will have to be called 'men'.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 23/02/2018 09:17

Cote but that is exactly what is happening : proponents of 'trans women are women no debate' are going back through history and declaring that many women previously celebrated for their achievements in traditionally male arenas like battle or science were in fact men.

As a possessor of XX biology with a strongly mathematical brain and an assertive personality who lives in trousers and flat shoes I too would probably be a man under this new definition.

ShotsFired · 23/02/2018 09:18

I am pleased that people found my posts useful. I'd like to point out that, just a few months ago, I was in the "eh, so what, live and let live" camp too.

It is almost entirely down to the thoughtful, informative and rational posts and links on this board that I have come to understand the huge issues facing women, and from where I have learned everything I posted.

I am willing to admit my prior ignorance of the subject and glad that I stayed round to learn with an open mind.

HairyBallTheorem · 23/02/2018 09:19

The "more men in STEM therefore brains are gendered" argument is completely spurious. Even if it turns out that the reason for this is innate difference in brain function rather than upbringing (an unlikely hypothesis given what we know of early brain plasticity), the mere fact that you had two overlapping distributions, with less women with the relevant "science-processing" parts of the brain than men, wouldn't make the brains of anyone with a large "science-processing" part male - it would just mean that there's a part of the human brain which is less often above a certain size in women than in men.

Just like the fact that men on average are taller than women doesn't mean that there's a certain height threshold which qualifies as a "male" height.

The fact remains that you can't look at someone's height alone, or their brain alone, and say "that's a male person". You can, however, look at their cock and balls and say "that's a male person".

CoteDAzur · 23/02/2018 09:20

"It used to be based on biology (woman = "of the sex that bears young" etc). It is now, according to some, based on feeling (woman = "anyone who identifies as a woman")"

Does that now mean that language means nothing and that anyone who says they are something are that thing? Like, I say I am a dinosaur so now everyone has to treat me like a gigantic reptile? James from Accounting says he feels like a cat so we all have to pet him and scratch his tummy when he rubs against our legs, lest we get shunned as bigots who won't respect his identity? Hmm

logicalmum · 23/02/2018 09:24

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BertrandRussell · 23/02/2018 09:26

It’s interesting that the TRA in particular seem not to have the stereotypical women’s characteristics of empathy, nurture, ability to read nuanced emotion, understanding of the bigger picture......

Or the oft observed women’s tendency to put others first.

InfiniteCurve · 23/02/2018 09:30

CSIFemale, less women in STEM might possibly be down to innate biological factors.(I don't think so myself,but accept its theoretically possible).Those differences overall between men and women aren't relevant to the trans argument because none of the gendered differences in average behaviour are applicable to all women/all men.
If I do those brain sex test thingies (technical term...!) I come out the same as DH. I am biologically female,I have had 2 children,breastfed them.My identity as a woman rests on biology because I have never identified with the gendered behaviour associated with "womanhood".Though I don't think you would know if you met me - if you think societal pressure to conform is a little thing you are vastly underestimating how corrosive it is to be constantly exposed to the idea that your thoughts,interests and behaviour are somehow not quite right.
I can quite see that societal pressure and expectations could affect how many women end up or not in eg STEM careers,or behaving in particular ways.
Also I can understand to an extent how difficult it must be for someone who identifies as trans.Only up to a point,that's not my experience.
I think my point is here that I'm a woman...but not because of my girl brain.
And I'm not trans either.But to quote you I think I do have "a brain which would typically and usually be found in the opposite sex " Or at least that's what it often feels like,and it's the feels that are important,yes? That's because I am a woman,well,like the kind of woman I am.I'm not a man.
Not sure how coherent that is as it feels increasingly personal.If the definition of being a woman is moving to someone who identifies at a deep level with what they feel a woman should be or the gendered stereotypes of womanhood then that feels as if its identifying me right out of being a woman.
Hate that. Confused

(Also separate point - many women get bent out of shape by the boy brain /girl brain thing because historically this argument has been used to prevent women from doing things they want to do and are able to do.Its not rocket science really....)

Bluelady · 23/02/2018 09:33

That's a naive and disingenuous question. The cost of NHS treatment is another issue entirely. I have the utmost respect for transgender women who travel the long, painful and costly path of complete transition. They suffer in many ways and just feel complete relief at finally finding themselves in the "right" body.

It's the latest generation I take issue with, the self identifying, entitled, shouty lot who demand women's rights just because they want them. They're eroding women's rights and represent just another means of male oppression. Bastards.

logicalmum · 23/02/2018 09:41

It's the latest generation I take issue with, the self identifying, entitled, shouty lot who demand women's rights just because they want them. They're eroding women's rights and represent just another means of male oppression. Bastards
They're the ones i'm on about, the cost of this "entitled shouty" lot to the taxpayer and an over stretched NHS.

XXkimchi · 23/02/2018 09:48

They are men, you can’t change your sex.

Also brilliant post shots.

Bluelady · 23/02/2018 09:51

The entitled shouty ones aren't costing the NHS anything, they're not transitioning, they're just saying "I'm a woman".

BigDeskBob · 23/02/2018 10:00

"It’s interesting that the TRA in particular seem not to have the stereotypical women’s characteristics of empathy, nurture, ability to read nuanced emotion, understanding of the bigger picture......

Or the oft observed women’s tendency to put others first."

That's the advantage of being a 'male adult human female' - the ability to criticise 'female adult human females' for not showing the very characteristics they themselves don't have.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 10:12

I find these threads quite interesting because no one I know in real life really cares about whether "trans" women are really women. As long as they are not identifying as women for any ominous than I don't see the problem in letting them do that in most circumstances. I don't think they should be allowed to compete as women in sports though.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 10:12

I meant "ominous reason"

FreeNiki · 23/02/2018 10:16

They aren't. It is called false syllogism. Just because you call a man a woman, doesn't make it true.

FluffyPineapple · 23/02/2018 10:21

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beepthemeep · 23/02/2018 10:22

This thread could have been closed after Shots' brilliant explanation at the beginning.

Bottom line - they aren't, and they never will be. What they are, is absolutely free to live and act and dress exactly as they like, without any censure or prejudice, provided that nobody causes harm or tramples on anyone else's rights. E.g. one person's feelings about where they get changed should not trump those of 50 women who also have to change there.

Which is no different to how anyone else should live, IMHO!

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 10:24

They aren't. It is called false syllogism. Just because you call a man a woman, doesn't make it true.

If they genuinely feel they are women who cares whether they are correct or not though? I don't unless they are not genuine and claiming to be women for some ominous reason. Otherwise live and let live...

FreeNiki · 23/02/2018 10:26

If they genuinely feel they are women who cares whether they are correct or not though?

Are you aware how badly womens rights will be eroded by allowing men to call themsleves women?!

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 10:28

Are you aware how badly womens rights will be eroded by allowing men to call themsleves women?!

No I am not aware that women's rights will be badly eroded by a very small minority of men calling themselves women. What rights are you talking about?

ignatiusjreilly · 23/02/2018 10:35

It seems to me as though trans activists are fighting the wrong fight.

The women's rights movement has widened society's expectations of how a woman can live. Thankfully now women can wear what we like, have our hair however we like, pick any career we like (obviously I'm massively over-simplifying here and we still have a long way to go) and any move into traditionally-male areas is seen as a good thing because girls aren't being held back by gender stereotypes.

But I don't see it working the other way yet, and I think THAT is where trans activists should be focusing. If men were more free to behave in a traditionally-female way without everyone assuming they're gay, without facing physical violence and verbal abuse in male spaces like toilets and changing rooms, then surely there'd be no need for them to identify as women. They'd still be men but within a wider, less traditionally-defined behaviour spectrum.

Our idea of "men" needs to expand to include men who don't want to be confined to a narrow idea of how men should look and act. That's where the real problem lies. But it's VERY difficult and understandably a frightening prospect to change other men's minds about what how men should be. Women had a hard enough time and still do.

So I can understand why it's easier to bring the fight into OUR arena. It's easier to say "We want to be accepted as women. We want to come and enjoy your safe spaces" but it's really shying away from the issue at the heart of it all.

Imagine if the Suffragettes had gone down that route instead. "We want to be seen as men from now on" instead of focusing on improving women's rights and opening doors that were closed to us before.

I think the whole "feeling like a woman" argument is a red herring.

UpstartCrow · 23/02/2018 10:37

Dungeondragon15
The right to same sex spaces, to compete fairly in sports, or have a women only hospital ward or prison, Rape Crisis or DV shelter.

Are you confusing transsexual people with trans activists?

Can we bring the discussion back on track? Because I'm still waiting for an answer while my rights are erased.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 10:41

So I can understand why it's easier to bring the fight into OUR arena. It's easier to say "We want to be accepted as women. We want to come and enjoy your safe spaces" but it's really shying away from the issue at the heart of it all.

If that was the reason for identifying as women then why are there also transgender men? The fact is that for some people genuinely feel that they were born in the wrong body. As long as they genuinely feel this way and are not claiming to be the opposite sex for some ominous reason, I just can't get worked up whether it is true or not. Why do people care?

BertrandRussell · 23/02/2018 10:44

“No I am not aware that women's rights will be badly eroded by a very small minority of men calling themselves women. What rights are you talking about?”

These are the issues that concern me. What do you think?

  1. The gathering of data and the formulating of statistics will be skewed- for example violent committed by transwomen will be recorded as female crime.
  2. Women will have to compete against male bodied people at sport and will be consistently beaten by them.
  3. Women will no longer be able to guarantee that they will receive intimate care from only from femLe bodied carers.
  4. Provision made to address under representation of women in public life will be open to people who have not lived as women and been socialized as women.
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