To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

[Lilyyulelog]

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

Dungeondragon15: As I said, if someone is traumatised they should be allowed to choose who does and doesn't treat them but that happens anyway.

You do realise that if self ID goes ahead you will not be able to refuse a trans woman to examine you/council you after rape, stop trans woman in DV shelters, do your smear, look after your elderly mum with intimate care?

DaisyDrip I think this is the problem, people in favour of self ID don't understand what they are supporting.

UpstartCrow Exactly!

I can't see the problem myself with mixed changing rooms if there are cubicles

Neither do I but communal changing means an open room. That I have a problem with

You do realise that if self ID goes ahead you will not be able to refuse a trans woman to examine you/council you after rape, stop trans woman in DV shelters, do your smear, look after your elderly mum with intimate care?

I don't agree with self ID when it comes to those situations. However even if it did go ahead, I would still trust rape crisis centres and DV shelters would not employ people who were not genuine and only want to work there for omnious reasons.

Whether self ID was in place or not women (or men) can still refuse to be treated by a particular healthcare professional.

“Clearly transgender women would have an unfair advantage in sport so for that reason they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.”

But they are doing it already. How will you stop them? ”Thanswonen are women-oh, except in sport”

TeChers never share bedrooms with students on residential trips, by the way.

Dungeondragon15 it's not just teachers it's other pupils so my daughters school can not give me assurances that she won't be sharing a twin room with a male bodied person

Dungeondragon15: However even if it did go ahead, I would still trust rape crisis centres and DV shelters would not employ people who were not genuine and only want to work there for omnious reasons.
Whether self ID was in place or not women (or men) can still refuse to be treated by a particular healthcare professional.

I mean this with no malice at all but you need to read up on what self ID will mean. DV shelters will have no choice, it will come under equality law and trans woman will have to be seen to be represented. If a man who identifies as a woman comes to do your smear and you refuse it will be no different to refusing a BAME, LGBT etc person. It will all come under discrimination.

Look, just quit pretending you are in favour of self ID then coming out with 'except in this situation'. There are no exceptions, thats what we object to.
Do you see the problem now?

would still trust rape crisis centres and DV shelters would not employ people who were not genuine and only want to work there for omnious reasons.
How will they know for what reasons they are there for? And when they get sued by the person as they’re not being hired because they are trans?

Trans women are men and if we say well ok sometimes they can go into women’s places, but not dv shelters? Do you really think that will work? How will you legislate that?

We sex segregate and you can’t change sex.

I am pretty sure that if someone asked for a woman, the people who work in rape crisis centres wouldn't assign a transwoman without checking that it was okay first.

I’m afraid that’s plain wrong. Employers in the UK can’t legally out their staff as trans (even if they look very obviously trans). The only option would be to put forward the trans woman and see if the woman seeking help complains.

I’m a lawyer so I know a bit about this.

The people who work at the centre choose the employees. They are not going to employ someone who has decided they are female last week and clearly wants to work there for some ominous reason.

Unfortunately the rape crisis centres aren’t psychic and there has already been at least one instance of a man presenting as a trans woman in order to access vulnerable women.

www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

Dungeondragon15 ,It clearly makes sense to have mixed and single gender for those that do mind though

But how do XX female bodied people who do not want to share an open changing area with an XY bodied person achieve that then?
Because currently there are single sex spaces.There won't be.If you have single gender changing areas,then because trans women are women they are completely free to use that area.

And how do you think a refuge for example can distinguish "genuine" (for want of a better word) job applicants from any other? They can be sued if it is thought they have discriminated against a candidate.

Another transphobic thread. Yawn

One of the problems with not having had a proper public debate about these issues is that none of us know exactly how it’s going to work. That means that those of us with concerns look like catastrophists, and the “ Oh, it’ll be fine!!!!!!!!!!! group look as if they haven’t thought it through.
We really, really need open and honest talks.

“Another transphobic thread”

Please highlight and report any transphobic posts. I will join you in reporting.

But they are doing it already. How will you stop them? ”Thanswonen are women-oh, except in sport

They shouldn't be allowed to compete just because they have "self ID" as women. I believe that currently whether they are allowed to compete depends on their testosterone levels are below a certain level for at least 12 months beforehand. If this means that they don't have an unfair advantage then it should continue.

BertrandRussell I think the problem is TRA's shout "no debate" and for politicians it's a real hot potato issue. Eventually it's going to have to be discussed, the question is when, once self ID is in place and the consequences are becoming apparent?

But how do XX female bodied people who do not want to share an open changing area with an XY bodied person achieve that then?

Given how society is changing (there seem to be many transgender younger people) I don't think that open changing areas will continue to be appropriate. Leisure centres etc need to move with the times.

Another transphobic thread. Yawn
Trying to shut down debate with lie. Yawn

Dungeondragon15: If this means that they don't have an unfair advantage then it should continue.

Height, muscle mass, larger lungs and other things, that doesn't make it fair. Testosterone levels are only one part of the differences between men and woman in sport.

Testosterone levels than transgender athletes have to achieve to compete are well above those which non transgender female athletes will have naturally.And physical structure is different in people who have gone through male puberty.
They do have an advantage over natal women

They shouldn't be allowed to compete just because they have "self ID" as women. I believe that currently whether they are allowed to compete depends on their testosterone levels are below a certain level for at least 12 months beforehand. If this means that they don't have an unfair advantage then it should continue.

Lowered testosterone levels don’t remove the height-weight advantage.

This is 6’3”, 15.5 stone Hannah Mouncey who is permitted to compete in women’s AFL. AFL is a contact sport, a bit like rugby. Some woman is going to get injured.

mobile.twitter.com/HannahMouncey/status/952315602659520512/photo/3

And how do you think a refuge for example can distinguish "genuine" (for want of a better word) job applicants from any other?

Don't they do that anyway?!!

Dungeondragon15 and the issue with school trips, do they just have to stop.