To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

[Lilyyulelog]

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

How about you go and look at the women who trained their hearts out in weight lifting, only to be beaten by laurel hubbard?

How about you go and talk to the weight-lifting governing body and ask them why they've set their participation requirements where they have? They have the power to make them almost anything they want them to be for trans athletes.

The trans community consider it incredibly offensive when you say « trans women are not women. « , continuing to say it is losing the argument , the rest of what you say isn’t even read because you’ve already been as offensive as you can. Regardless of your opinion you can surely see that that’s not the way to encourage debate, dialogue and compromise?

Oh no, we can't upset the men can we?

Be a bit cleverer and chose your words wiser.

Nope. Men cannot become women. Ever.

Yup Dungeon, it must be bad because trans are

Actually that's not true hooochy. The few transpeople I know do not support that narrative. They are concerned and some of them are furious that they are being dragged into it by shouty activists.

They aren't. I believe its more about your soul being in a different body though

Xulishes - we know why. They are petrified of discrimination and being sued for it. That is why your precious exemptions won't be used.

But transwomen are not biological women and it is our biology that means we need safe spaces. Yes trans people deserve rights and protection but it needs to be their own, ther needs are different and that needs to be recognised

They conform to female gender stereotypes and believe themselves to be women. Nothing wrong with humouring them but the biological differences which account for the majority of inconveniences women face don't apply.

Bull. Poor old government establishments, poor old governing bodies, poor old private businesses, too scared to protect women by applying the actual law? Are they scared of mean old transpeople too? Look, if women are unsafe take it to the people responsible for keeping them safe in that environment. You're letting them off the hook.

*But this awareness raising is done a disservice by the continuing transphobia. The trans community consider it incredibly offensive when you say « trans women are not women. « , continuing to say it is losing the argument , the rest of what you say isn’t even read because you’ve already been as offensive as you can. Regardless of your opinion you can surely see that that’s not the way to encourage debate, dialogue and compromise?

Be a bit cleverer and chose your words wiser.*

Choose your words wiser? Erm I am choosing the correct words, transwomen aren't women, to say anything else would be choosing the wrong words, care to explain how they are women?
It's basic biology.

What a twisted way of thinking.

Don't blame the activists for wanting to push into women's spaces. Don't blame the haters who scream "terfs must die" and the entitled men who insist that women be redefined to include them. Don't blame the cheats who want a medal or the perverts who want to see nude women or make women see their cocks.

No, blame the government. God forbid that individuals should take responsibility for their own actions, eh?

Look, if women are unsafe take it to the people responsible for keeping them safe in that environment. You're letting them off the hook.

We are trying for example the guide association but we just get called transphobic and get shouted down

@hooochycoo It’s great that these threads call for a debate on a really important subject

How do you debate with people whose only response is #NoDebate, followed by threats/violence, suggestions you "Die In A Fire", get your "crusty vagina raped by [their] lady dick" and other such delights.

All neatly followed up by concerted and deliberate campaigns to "out" you online, publish your name, address and personal info and try and get you fired from your job for being transphobic for wanting the discussion?

Seriously? How do you debate with that?

I know a trans woman who transitioned completely 20 years ago. She had a dreadful journey to becoming a physical woman, all played out in the spotlight of the gutter press because she works in a high profile public sector role. All she's ever wanted is to live her life quietly.

The self id thing has really upset her. She feels that it completely trivialises her experience and doesn't want the private spaces she underwent so much to be entitled to invaded by men.

A nicer, more empathetic person you'd never meet. This is the kind of person who is being horribly affected by current events. Is anyone here saying this is what they really want? Do these people's rights trump hers?

There’s extremists at either side of this argument . Please don’t make mumsnet one of them. The «trans women aren’t women» baiting is as offensive as «term» and «suck my lady dick»

It’s not just offensive to trans women, it’s offensive to people who consider themselves non binary too . For instance my friend who was born female, but now prefers to be classed as «they» . She/they finds this all this incredibly offensive. You’re not going to win the argument with them/her by continuing to , as she sees it, misgender other trans people. It’s considered an offensive act.

Took me a while to get my head round, but I have. And I now find it possible to talk about this and my concerns about the changes to the law and how they might be too risky without being accused of transphobia.

Don't blame the activists for wanting to push into women's spaces. Don't blame the haters who scream "terfs must die" and the entitled men who insist that women be redefined to include them. Don't blame the cheats who want a medal or the perverts who want to see nude women or make women see their cocks.

You've made your prejudices quite clear beep.

Really, xulishes? Do explain.

Bluelady She is one of the old transexuals, trans woman we have coexisted with for years. They usually do just go about their lives quietly and I for one have no problem with them at all. It's the new loud, demanding, shut down the debate, erase woman TRA's I have a major problem with.

Transwomen are not women is a true fact. It isn't a lie or an insult or a slur. Transwomen are transwomen nothing more nothing less

hooochycoo

It’s great that these threads call for a debate on a really important subject, and I for one am grateful to them for opening my eyes to the possible problems to the proposed changes to the GRA

But if 'trans women are women' then what possible problems could there be?

When we say 'transwomen are not women' we're not saying it to be mean, we are saying it because it's the entire point.

A while back, Jess Phillips (I think it was her) retweeted WPUK's 5 simple demands and said they sounded reasonable. She got an endless stream of responses just repeating the mantra 'trans women are women'. How do we even discuss this stuff if we no longer have the words?

I feel exactly the same as you, Daisy. Women like her have paid their dues.

I have friends who are MTF and a cousin who is FTM. They are all appalled by the current sort of activism that some people practice and think it doesn't help their cause one bit. Their views have partly informed my opinions.

The mere fact that it's not men who are being shouted at to redefine their sex; to agree that women are men; to give up their spaces - that speaks volumes.

Read through some of the responses here and I am still in a mire about it all.

I see the risks to biological women through some of the activities of trans activists.

I equally see many trans women who are just struggling for acceptance and who are not activists. I have no issue with using the correct terminology...if a trans woman wants the term "she" then I have no problem using that...live and let live.

However I do have a problem when roles such as Women's Officer are appropriated by a trans woman who in some cases has not even undergone transition. They can have no idea what it means to be a woman because they've never had to live it or experience it. The role of Trans Women's Officer" I would have no issues with. Trans women have specific challenges and issues which need supporting and fighting for.

Are trans women really women? No, I think they are trans women with heir own identity and issues. What's wrong with that? I have no issue with anyone identifying as the opposite sex, better that than deny it and fall into terrible mental health issues.

"«trans women aren’t women» baiting is as offensive as «term» and «suck my lady dick»"

Really now On which planet is "Males can't be women according to dictionary definitions" anywhere near as offensive to anybody as "Suck my dick"?

Dungeondragon15 The lesbian comparison to dysphoric males comes up in these discussions all the time. The fact people so often go straight to lesbians as the 'interesting' potential threat when concerns about males who do over 95% of sexual violence are discussed rather than a more relevant dysphoric female on synthetic testosterone speaks volumes. It's rooted in old homophobic tropes of same sex attracted women not being and a threat to real women and ignores that rape is about power rather than attraction.

I've been sexually assaulted by women, straight women who thought I needed to be taught a lesson while I was restrained by tubes while I was in hospital. I still highly value and wish sex segregated spaces to maintain their legal protection. Those spaces have saved my life as they cared for me however I identified, they helped my daughters after they were sexually harrassed and threated, and women fought hard and deserve to have our space and for statistics on us to show our experiences.

Sports have become an entirely different complicated kettle of fish, while some like to think so they aren't independent - sporting governing bodies are subject to the laws of the land which has resulted both in males competing against females but also females on testosterone - something that would have been unthinkable a few years ago because we have decades of research on the unfair advantage T gives - being allowed and required to compete against other females at multiple levels including in schools. Personally, I find high schoolers being on T concerning enough with all the risks but surely shouldn't be allowed to compete and earn awards in sports on T. One would think people would have more sense than that - in my wrestling days I couldn't even take over the counter creatine and wrestle, it was one or the other - but that's what is happening now.

Trans women are trans women, trans men are trans men, and we dysphoric people have a serious medical condition that deserves condition and compassion, but it doesn't erase biological sex or physical reality. No matter what my brain says or how much it has distressed me at times, I'm female and while it can be upsetting to have that pointed out (especially for those us who being outed as been followed by being physically attacked) it should in no universe be equated with things like 'suck my lady dick'.