To be terrified social services will take my child/children away now?

[horriblefeelingaboutthis]

A doctor just basically threatened me with having my child/future children taken away.

Here is the story:

I come from a fairly dysfunctional background - was looked after physically but a lot of family relationships broke up around me when I was young, and it left emotional scars that I've carried since. I also got into a bad relationship in my late 20s and became a lone parent on the back of that.

Have raised my child well, they are 4 now and the picture of health and happiness, they go to a nursery full time and have lots of friends etc. It's just that I have been alone raising them and it has taken it's toll. I feel like I've aged a decade, put on 3 stone, and I had what you would probably call a breakdown in the last year - couldn't stop crying. So was signed off sick, and am generally better now. Was put on anti anxiety/depression medication.

What I really wanted was regular counselling. So I pushed my GP over and over to give me access to this. About 2 years ago. They sent me to mental health services and that's where things seem to have gone wrong. All MH services did, was invite me to see them once every 4-6 months. A different doctor would see me every time. They asked me lots of questions, all of which I answered truthfully. They said I would benefit from the medication and long-term counselling, and put me on a waiting list for it about 18 months ago.

Today they said I've been rejected for counselling as I don't meet all the criteria. That made me cry as I've been waiting so long. The doctor this time (another different one) heard me explain, again, why I want the counselling - lots of information dating back years, I would just like the opportunity to get it all out and move on with my life. If I had known it would take this long to be assessed and then rejected I would have gone private in the first place so it's very frustrating.

The doctor then told me she was adding another medication - another anti depressant - to what I'm taking (even though I don't feel more depressed - if anything more anxious, but actually more even than 1-2 years ago and better). She wouldn't answer my questions when I asked about the medication, just fobbed me off saying it would make me 'feel better'.

Then she said she was making a referral to social services. I was shocked and asked why. She said it was for me and daughter to be assessed. I think because I am a lone parent. But my daughter is not at risk.

At this point I tried to backtrack, saying what happens if I just decide not to continue with this service, as you are not going to offer me any support anyway. At that point she basically told me that if I don't cooperate social services will force me to do an assessment, of my child too, and my child could be removed, also any future babies I have could be taken away by social services.

This terrifies me, especially as I am currently considering conception by choice - to give my child a sibling, and because I can afford it.

I have heard horror stories on here and elsewhere of people having their babies taken away by social services. Can anyone offer me any advice? I wish I had never met these people, and just want to run a million miles - but scared that if I do I will have a permanent black mark against my name, and lose my children.

It's crazy, I went in for help but have come out feeling a hell of a lot worse.

Thanks, anyone.

Motoko that sounds horrible, she didn't say anything about that

I''m honestly not worse than I think I am - I am the one who pushed for a referral to MH services in the first place! As I thought I would then get access to counselling.. regretting it now of course..

What does a CPN do? Everyone here seems to know but me

horriblefeelingaboutthis I think the doctor is trying to help you. Mirtazipine isn't an unusual antidepressant and is used to help control OCD behaviours. If you told the doctor that you were struggling with some OCD behaviours and your DD was copying, she may be trying to help you reduce those, so that it's better for you and your DD.

A cpn is a psych nurse who you see regularly (every week or 2) who acts as your contact in MH services, provides day to day support and generally gets to know you and your MH that bit better. The thing is, CPNs are usually only provided to those people were the CMHT believes that they need regular contact to keep them safe or to help in some aspect of their day to day functioning or some other specific part of their recovery. They are really quite difficult to get allocated and this is why I'm under the impression that the cmht thinks you're quite unwell quite now.

A CPN is a Community Psychiatric Nurse. You would get a Mental Health Nurse assigned to you, who would get to know you, touch base with you as needed, advocate for you with psychiatrists if required, feedback any issues you're having with your meds between appointments, etc., so they can be adjusted been appointments.

But, to get a CPN, you have to be taken into a caseload, and none of us can tell if you need that or not.

I've been there. I ended up in a&e as I desperately needed help with my anxiety on a weekend and out of hours couldn't help. I was assessed and told I probably had PND. I didn't. I was referred to community psychiatric services who confirmed they didn't think I had PND and told me they couldn't help me as I was mental unwell enough.

A&E also had an obligation to alert social services to my visit. I heard nothing from them. I did however have DH do wasn't a lone parent. In your situation I would expect they would call to see how you are and possibly ask to meet with you to see if they can provide any extra support. More than likely, if your daughter is healthy and well cared for then that will be that.

I know exactly what psychotherapy is, I've had it. If they really thought she was that ill she should have been offered psychotherapeutic support not just drugs, that's what she would have been offered in the private sector. The current treatment plan of drugs + doctor every 6 months is not enough support if they think she has serious issues.

Another side effect of Mirtazapine is thoughts of self harm which she should she warned you about and told you to contact them if it happens.

Carry on with the GP-bashing though
Fine, I will. they can be real knobheads when referring to adult social services too. "Mrs X is lonely, please find her a care home" (total text of one referral) 'This man can't possibly stay at home whatever he wants, mark my words, I'm a doctor and I know" (he stayed happily at home with carers for two more years).

The thing is Psych + multiple drugs (polypharmacy is reasonably unusual for depression, unless very severe, treatment resistant or comorbid with something else) + offer of a CPN is more than 95% of people with depression in the NHS get. I'm not sure how unwell the OP is presenting as-I really don't- but, IME, something is setting off warning bells for the cmht. I don't know how justified that is, but they simply don't have enough money to be throwing it around like this if it doesn't warrant it.

OP, you mention that you have enough income to have a second child...why don't you use some of that to pay for a private mental health therapy/psychiatrists until you are feeling a little better. The funding for mental health in the NHS is abysmal and you really need more than you are getting.

thoughts of self harm?

it sounds like it is going to give me problems I don't have in the first place

She asked me the usual series of questions about suicidal thoughts and self harm, as well as have I ever hurt my daughter - the answer to all of these is always no

I'm willing to answer any questions they have honestly, but am kind of confused about what they are doing. It's not like I am an urgent case, they have been asking the same things for about 2 years now, and I have definitely been more upset in previous appointments (like last year when I probably actually was in need of more treatment and they introduced the Duloxetine)

Could this one doctor just be really heavy handed?

It’s quite common to take two different anti- depressant together.
Mirtazipine is def an anti depressant not an anti psychotic medication.
It helps really well with sleep as well.
I’ve not personally been on it but know quite a few people who it’s worked well for.
A CPN should be helpful, it will be one person who has knowledge of medications / other support services and can be a great person to provide some reassurance.
I think it will be much more helpful than seeing a different psychiatrist every 4:5 months .
Please try to see it as a positive that you can get a helping hand rather than a negative.

I have to say that my Mum is very unwell, and has psych + multiple drugs + CPN, is 6 months post-discharge from a Section 3 and gets high rate PIP (both parts) because of it. She's on 3 antidepressants and the psych has just said that's as far as it can go.

Get a new GP!

Op don't worry I doubt you'd even meet threshold for social services involvement . Your child will not be taken away!

You say your on your own but your planning another dc, I'm not sure this is a great idea if you feel depressed and anxious and don't have much support. As others have said pay for counselling .

I'm pretty sure the OP has stated that it is. not her GP who is making threats - because that's what they are. It's a doctor who she has never encountered before, from MH services.

OP, please try not to panic. See whoever turns up. You have successfully nurtured your dd for 4 years, despite all that you've been going through. Be confident about that. If you think that it was something you said that triggered this response, then address that issue and show that you're on the case, if they ask about it. If help is offered, accept it. For better or worse, it will only be for a limited time.
Please try to relax and go with the flow. Just stay calm in your dealings with MH or SS and in the meantime arrange some private counselling/psychotherapy which you will hopefully find a lot more helpful than what you've been offered so far.

If you're worried about the drugs you've been prescribed, maybe this would be a good time to see your (much maligned on here!) GP to discuss what they are for, in the absence of any explanation from the MH doctor who prescribed them. You could also mention the SS referral, and how surprised you were by it. I'm assuming your dd is at the same surgery, so I'm sure they will have some idea of your dd's health and well-being.

Just try and stay calm and be your articulate self, op. You and your dd will be fine, I'm sure.

@unweavedrainbow - you write like someone with a professional background.

As someone who works with a CMHT I'm a little uncomfortable with your posts. You are writing as if you know the OP is unwell, when actually you know nothing of the sort. The mental health team you know might work that way but not all do. I spend a lot of my time working with the team to discharge people back into primary care services, not all mental health professionals get everything right and people who don't need it do sometimes end up locked in a system. and it sounds like OP has had terrible care to date. Please reflect on how frightening your posts may be to here, and how you have no actual evidence for your opinion.

OP please do not worry. Mental health services are complex and funding for psychological therapy is chronically low. In our area you'll only be accepted if you are a serious risk to yourself or others. There is a gap between those who need low level support and those who need high level support, and those people end up missing out.

I would:

1. Consider if you can afford private therapy (if you just want to literally "offload" your life to someone then you need a counsellor- they'll charge about £40 a session)
2. Look at voluntary places near you that might offer therapy (start with Mind)
3. Make contact with someone from the MH team and ask what diagnosis they have for you. Then ask why you don't mean criteria for psychotherapy and why you can't be seen by primary care. It's a hassle to get your notes to be honest, so maybe see if you can get them to just give you straight answers

No one is taking your child away. I work with people who are seriously unwell and SS don't work to remove their children. You sound like you've worked so hard, you're going to be ok.

Horriblethoughts, I think this Dr manner was terrible in the fact that she scared you and did not explain that loads of people have CPN’s and they are meant to help( honestly loads of people want one and can’t get one)
I think she/ he as well may have been quite junior and cautious which is not always a bad thing as Dr rotations and February and August ( I think ) so she could be quite new .

OP, if you have no history of SH, no suicidal ideation, no intrusive thoughts or psychosis and you can function well enough to work did the cmht ever say why they a) accepted the referral in the first place and b) kept you on the books? As services are so stretched right now it's usual, even for someone with reasonably severe depression, to be medicated and monitored by their GP. If counselling is needed there are local well being services. MH services only pick up the most severe end of the spectrum and, even then, it's pretty normal to only have a few appointments and then be discharged back. You say that you've been seeing pscyhs regularly for 2ish years and they seem to be stepping up treatment rather than reducing it. It's possible that this particular doctor is being a bit OTT but this does seem rather odd.

@sourpatchkid I'm sorry if I'm coming across that way. I have repeatedly said that I don't know how unwell the OP is (in fact she sounds like she's doing rather well). It's just bemusing to me that, at a time when services are so stretched, she seems to be getting a lot of input. You're right that sometimes people get trapped in systems and maybe this doctor was being very OTT. I didn't mean to frighten the OP and I should probably back off now.

Thanks @unweavedrainbow , I hope my post didn't read too harshly as that wasn't my intention

It's just that some teams really work well and some really don't. I hate the assumption that professionals are always right when sometimes they're not.

Best wishes to you and to OP

Aww don't worry OP . My partner presented at AnE before Xmas with severe anxiety and felt like he wanted to "end it all". They referred us to SS as a safeguarding thing and all they did was call me, ask a few questions, offer help and closed the book on it. From what was explained to us by the doctor it sounds like it is protocol.

The lady I spoke to from SS was wonderful, and signposted us to some good resources, in no way did it come across as though they had any intention of removing our child. She is much loved, and cared for like your own DD.

Feel free to advance search my name and you will see a post I actually posted in mental health whilst sat in AnE with DP. It explains more about his symptoms and they were quite extreme.

Don't worry

Thanks. Thank god for Mumsnet, you have given me some reassurance. The general consensus on here seems to be the doctor was wrong to suggest what she did. Though I will admit I will probably be anxious for the foreseeable until I know for sure.

Come to think of it my child has never ever been away for me, never stayed at anyone else's house, been put to bed by anyone else. And is a very clingy child. So removing them to somewhere strange with strange people would probably be the most traumatic thing for them. Not exactly in their best interests.

Mirtazipine is def an anti depressant not an anti psychotic medication.
It helps really well with sleep as well.
I’ve not personally been on it but know quite a few people who it’s worked well for.

As I said previously, my husband had this. Yes, it did make him sleepy, so he slept a lot, but it was shallow, REM sleep, and full of very vivid nightmares that when he was awake, he couldn't shake off the feelings he felt during the nightmares. He felt like a zombie during the day, and was very anxious.
I'd forgotten about the side effect that a PP mentioned, of having suicidal thoughts, and although he didn't have those, I can understand someone having them if they're suffering like my husband was, they'd just want to stop feeling like that.

This is why I suggested OP speaks to her GP about it, to see if she really needs it. Another person OP could speak to about this drug, is the pharmacist. They will know about the side effects.

unweavedrainbow - I think you might be assuming all CMHTs work the same way. I don't think they all do. My CMHT tends to keep people on the books - I have bipolar disorder, controlled, and I work, have a family, not considered to be high risk. But I have a CPN so if I become unwell there is a named contact for my husband to call. I see him for 5 min every 3 months or so (the CPN, not my husband!).

I don't know the OP's situation but you seem to u assuming some things are universally true when they aren't, at least in my experience.