To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

Here is why I am undecided.
Male circumcision is not illegal in most countries. Why is this? Is it just because governments don’t want to offend people’s religious sensibilities or are there other reasons?
I was shocked to hear that some circumcised babies are rushed to hospital with complications. I’d always thought that it was a safe procedure when carried out in a medical environment. That is terrible.
But then I thought, I wonder how most of these circumcisions that went wrong were carried out?

I’m thinking most probably weren’t carried out in a safe medical setting, but by someone not properly qualified.
I could be wrong about that.
But if I’m right, making it illegal would result in more deaths as the practice is driven underground.
This would be a good reason for governments to decide to keep it legal.
The same cannot be said for FGM because that procedure always causes actual harm to girls so it needs to be banned worldwide.
It’s about causing the least possible harm perhaps.

Male circumcision is not illegal in most countries. Why is this? Is it just because governments don’t want to offend people’s religious sensibilities or are there other reasons?

I think it's because "we" do it. It's prevalent in the US, and not uncommon in Canada, and parts of Europe. people have trouble shining a light on themselves.

Hitting your child with an implement, e.g. belt or stick used to be legal not too long ago in the UK.
‘We’ used to do it. In fact it was positively encouraged.
Now we don’t. We made it illegal.

Sure. And now we are questioning it. just a little behind the smacking of children.

Why is it safer to do on a young baby than a healthy adult? I would have thought the sheer logistics, i.e. the relative size of the penis would make accidents with an adult penis less likely than with a baby sized one. Also where no anaesthetic is used there must be a danger of the baby moving making an accident even more likely.

Does anyone know if there are statistics for death/accident where adult circumcision is performed.

granny, probably because babies don't have erections (well they do sometimes but very occasionally) so after a surgery when there is an erection there is a risk that the skin will tear apart, creating scar tissue and/or bleeding, infection, etc.

Also if a grown man has a medical need for a circumcision the situation might be more complex and difficult to operate, increasing the risks.

I am not sure if this is right but both my children have had surgeries in the past (for various reasons) and I can't see the scars at all now. This is anecdotal but Baby's skin heals fast.

I get the erection thing although as you say it does happen with baby boys, not that rare in my experience.

Again I can see the issue with medical need but then again would that be balanced out with far, far few ops being done?

Yes, I think on an adult healing takes longer, and getting erections during healing is horrible. My partner obvs wasn't looking at porn during that month but he got them randomly in the night every night and said it was pretty painful!

However that's still not a good enough reason to do it on babies. It should only be done for medical necessity. Religion doesn't trump bodily autonomy.

My DH is Muslim and I'm not. Have been reading a lot about this in particular as we are expecting a DS. I've noticed a lot of people aren't sure on why it's done.

There are a few reasons behind why Muslims circumcise and I may well miss some but the main points are that it does say in the Quran to follow Ibrahim's example who was circumcised. In Hadiths (which are attested accounts of the life of Mohammed ie the perfect Muslim so hadiths are a kind of guidance document) say that it is one of the five fitra or ways to keep clean, consider that Muslims pray five times a day and they have to clean themselves before prayer every time, if you're uncircumcised you have to wash your privates as well. Mohammed also circumcised his grandsons as another example.
There is a lot of supposed science behind the benefits and disbenefits of circumcision both for and against.

As a Muslim you are obligated by the Quran to raise your children Muslim hence why this is done at such an early age, it's also to avoid more pain/memories when older. On judgement day you're actions will be assessed, as a parent did you do everything you could to support your children to be Muslim? If not then you won't be entering heaven.

@Bluelady I'm sorry for the reactions you've had on here. I do think that this would be used as another way for people to remove others they don't want to be in the country. Cause and effect, you can't say that by making circumcision illegal you won't force Jewish and Muslim people to leave or take the practice to unlicensed practitioners because it will as they are otherwise unable to perform a religious duty required of them.

Yes, I think on an adult healing takes longer, and getting erections during healing is horrible. My partner obvs wasn't looking at porn during that month but he got them randomly in the night every night and said it was pretty painful! On the other hand your husband is probably toilet trained, raw wound and urine in nappy can't be comfortable and as I said baby boys do get erections.

As a Muslim you are obligated by the Quran to raise your children Muslim hence why this is done at such an early age, it's also to avoid more pain/memories when older But many Muslims don't get it done till boys are older, I assume that is just tradition in various places. I saw a programme about Kenya where the boys seemed to be teenagers, my sister lived in a Muslim country where the boys were about 8 to 10 or 12.

Actually thinking about those reasons they sound more like it is uncomfortable for an adult male not more dangerous. Who knows how comfortable it is for a baby?

rates of cervical cancer and HPV are significantly lower in Jewish women. Fact
We now have a vaccine that protects women against most strains of HPV that are responsible for cervical cancer, so luckily the state of the partners penis is no longer really a factor.

But why can't people who believe in the importance of religious circumcision introduce anaesthetic? The video of that baby having his flesh cut off is horrendous. No doubt the ritual chanting / praying helps all those adult men get through it.

ROTFBSST: will you be having your child circumcised? How do you feel about it?

My non-Jewish friend let her Jewish DH have their DS circumcised....he said it would be done painlessly etc etc - she was sick on the day when she heard her baby screaming (from the room the women were banished to) , she has never forgiven herself and never forgiven her DH.

My non-Jewish uncle let my Jewish aunt get her DS's circumcised - but they had it done by a Dr with an anaesthetic, not a rabbi with a scalpel. And it was years and years ago (my cousin is in his 60s)

Of course it should. Mutilating a baby in such a way is fucking barbaric. Doing it because of religion is not an excuse.

The same cannot be said for FGM because that procedure always causes actual harm to girls so it needs to be banned worldwide.
It’s about causing the least possible harm perhaps..

The 'relative harm' argument is no excuse at all.

"Murder is much more serious than punching someone. So we'll make it legal for people to punch you."

"rates of cervical cancer and HPV are significantly lower in Jewish women. Fact"

They are lower in all groups of women who tend to have very few sexual partners. Including nuns. Fact.

I do think that this would be used as another way for people to remove others they don't want to be in the country. Cause and effect, you can't say that by making circumcision illegal you won't force Jewish and Muslim people to leave or take the practice to unlicensed practitioners because it will as they are otherwise unable to perform a religious duty required of them.

why paint this as a mark of xenophobia? This will have no effect on Poles, Eastern Europeans (what Brexit was aimed at), Hindus, Sikhs and Jains. it's not about getting rid of Jews and Muslims. it's about bad practices.

I agree that it's a concern that we will simply be driving this underground or people will travel abroad (where practices may be worse) to get it done, so this would need to be done with that in mind. But the basic idea that it's bad is still there.

@grannytomine I've read that the healing time is longer for adult/teenage males as opposed to infants.

@SlackPanther still in discussion with DH. I must admit when talking to doctors here they always give local anaesthetic for the procedure, not sure why it would be done without?

Oh and baby boys get erections all the time.

ROTFLBSST

Your childs likelihood or otherwise of getting into heaven has no relevance to whether or not you should be allowed to conduct unnecessary surgical procedures on them in the real world

The Quran says that good Muslims should do a lot of things, I'm hoping you ignore most of them. Why should circumcision be any different?

I've read that the healing time is longer for adult/teenage males as opposed to infants. Well I am sure that is very inconvenient for them but it doesn't mean it is more dangerous. Several people have said it is more dangerous, not painful or inconvenient but dangerous, for an adult male but is there actually an evidence of this or is it justifying putting infants through this.

Oh and baby boys get erections all the time. Thanks I was starting to wonder if it was just mine.

My DD is 10 and has a very crowded mouth so crowded her new teeth cant fit up in her gum, so there is a gap, she has a small patch on decay on her baby tooth as well.

The dentist has not suggested removing any teeth and referral to orthodontist said they will not remove any teeth and have another look in two years time when her milk teeth have gone.

I have offered to pay for her teeth to be done privatly re this crowded mouth and teeth not coming through, ie not cosmetic and they wont touch her so I am not sure about this supposed cosmetic surgery and yanking teeth out of 8 year olds?

How can it be more dangerous for a strong adult male to make a considered choice as to have this done, properly in a hygienic medial setting, rather than mum and dad and a back street butchers...leading to all the issues the hospitals are seeing from botched jobs>