To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

Patriarchy,

'If you lived in a culture where tattooing babies were normal then I would argue for that right.

Bloody hell. Just re-read that to yourself.

I rest my case.'

You clearly believe that ethics is entirely divorced from culture and tradition and that it takes place based on perfect logic. I think it is time to do some further reading around the subject.

IS the issue trauma to the baby/adult? Is the issue consent? If the latter, why does medical opinion override consent unless it is critical and urgent?

As far as I know, medical opinion does not override consent.

I see no reason why at 13 Jewish boys cannot make an active choice to have it done there at the family's expense and same with Muslim boys. Then they can make a clear informed choice.

Medical opinion does override consent - vaccines, or medically necessary surgery. A baby can't consent to a heart transplant or spinal surgery, but if it's medically necessary then the doctor/parent makes that decision.

I think it is time to do some further reading around the subject.

Ok, so pop back when you’ve done that and have come up with a better reason for harming babies than “culture and tradition”.

*Nuffaluff - of course it's not physically comparable. Not remotely. Nobody has said it is.

But in terms of the reason why society does it to young children, and in terms of the issue of consent? Are you really saying it isn't comparable because you don't think it's as severe so therefore the first two points are irrelevant?*
Sorry, posted too soon.
People have said that the two are comparable on this thread. I’ve seen many comments like ‘you wouldn’t let someone chop your little girl’s labia off, so why would you let them chop off your little boy’s foreskin?’
Many people are ignorant about the facts of FGM. Before I had my training I didn’t know quite how bad it is. For example, I didn’t know about the different types, or that it could lead to dangerous births for the victim in the future.
I use the word ‘comparable ‘ in the sense of ‘equal to’.
The two procedures are not equal. FGM is much much worse.
Many people who approve of Female Genital Mutilation downplay it by saying it’s the same thing as male circumcision.

I don’t think disagreeing with a painful, body-altering, non medically necessary operation in a newborn baby equals religious intolerance. Can you please explain bluelady?

She's been trying for 26 pages so not likely. I think it boils down to the idea that religious beliefs trump everything and allow followers unlimited freedom to act without criticism. Something like that.

Medical opinion does override consent - vaccines, or medically necessary surgery. A baby can't consent to a heart transplant or spinal surgery, but if it's medically necessary then the doctor/parent makes that decision.

yes, of course, for babies.

That makes sense, right? A baby can't consent to anything, so we do what we think is necessary to keep the baby alive and in good health so that they can get to a point where they can consent.

This is a very interesting discussion though. I am undecided as to what I think.

Larry

So no actual counter argument then? You'd be surprised how much reading I've done on ethics and meta-ethics.

What's your position on the subjectivity or otherwise of ethics and morality?

Very interesting discussion.

I have asked dh if he would consider a circumcision and he emphatically said no. He has proclaimed to the world that no doctor is going anywhere near his penis, thank you very much.

We have a daughter of 11. So, without her consent, we put her on the vaccination programme as a baby, because she cannot give consent as she was not Gillick competent. We made that decision for her, but it was the right medical decision to help her avoid dangerous medical diseases and improve the community's herd immunity.

But we have not impressed anything else on her. We don't have a religion, but if dd wanted to follow a religion, that's ok, as long as she finds the faith herself and doesn't feel limited by it. She had her ears pierced at her request. She is very switched on and after being given the pros and cons of any medical procedures can articulate why she does or does not want to go through with something. (She recently suffered a concussion and consented to everything in A&E, because I think she liked to see how the machines work). If there is a medical need, then she may needs some persuasion but she can see why something needs doing.

I think FGM and MGM (circumcision) is the same because, if it's for religious reasons, as other posters have said, it makes no logical sense. Did God make a mistake? Because if He didn't, why would he want bits chopped off young children? Surely they were created perfect, in His own image? It's bizarre!

Just because something has occurred for thousands of years doesn't make it the right thing to do. I congratulate Iceland, for opening the debate! And for considering a ban. I think the law in the UK should change too. I mean, sometimes, the foreskin needs cutting, I understand that, but if it's for purely religious reasons, then no. I don't know how such a law can be upheld though. Some girls go "on holiday to visit family" and come back cut, so maybe the parents need sanctions as well as the surgeons.

Why did wr ban FGM because its barbaric yet its a religious tradition people saying they just leave the country and have it done and come back so why did we bother banning FGM???

ZBIsabella - well, if you can't see any reason, perhaps you can email the suggestion to the Chief Rabbi and a leading local Imam - see what they say!

And what is all this about the family's expense - who do you think pays for it now?

Circumcision may not cure all ills but rates of cervical cancer and HPV are significantly lower in Jewish women. Fact.

Genuine question though - is it not the case that those who are religious (any religion) are statistically less likely to have multiple sexual partners? Therefore surely this is the correlation, not the circumsized status of their partner?

Good for Iceland. We should absolutely follow suit. Unless medically necessary there is no good reason to remove parts of your sons penis.

Having handed my baby over for surgery at 3 months old (for a kidney op) I can’t think why you’d choose to put your baby through an experience like that for no reason.

Just because something has occurred for thousands of years doesn't make it the right thing to do.

of course not. There are all sorts of cultural practices that are barbaric. Saying it's culture or religion should give you the right to do all sorts of unsensible things to yourself. not to other people.

Lizzie48

Girls can bleed to death from the practice,

Article summarising complications in Scandinavia including a death:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26991604/?i=3&from=circumcision%20bleeding%20death

Article summarising all complications:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253617

News article about a baby boy bleeding to death:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/newborn-bleeds-to-death-after-doctor-persuades-parents-to-have-him-circumcised-in-canada-a6710061.html

News article on a series of babies who contracted heroes from their circumcision:

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/herpes-babies-jewish-circumcision-ritual-link-rabbis-infants-a7620446.html

It's also a good way to diagnose haemophilia I believe traditionally in Jewish custom it was acceptable for a 3rd boy to not undergo the procedure if two older brothers had died from bleeding.

Any argument that circumcision is harmless is complete and utter bullshit.

*Herpes not heroes

You could start a thread about FGM and I don't think any poster would disagree.

The argument here seems to be that male circumcision isn't as bad therefore it doesn't matter.

Which I find very disturbing.

What about cosmetic dentistry? Plenty of children have teeth taken out and braces fitted without consent. Abusive? Not at 8 days old, by the time mine got to see an orthodontist they were certainly Gillick competent although not 18. The orthodontist wouldn't proceed unless children were in agreement, she said it was pointless as keeping teeth clean and healthy in braces was a big commitment and unless child wanted it done it was pointless having straight rotten teeth.

One of mine had to have teeth removed for the orthodontic treatment, it was done with anaesthetic in a hospital.

Are there any cases of children dying from orthodontic treatment. We certainly didn't get that warning.

I thought it would cost more at 13 than as a baby that was the only reason I said if my age 13 rule were brought in by Jews and Muslims there might be a cost issue. If I am wrong then my suggestion is simply that boys choose at 13.

Why did wr ban FGM because its barbaric yet its a religious tradition people saying they just leave the country and have it done and come back so why did we bother banning FGM???
Because it is also against the law to send a child abroad to have FGM done.

Also for those saying the ban shouldn’t happen on religious grounds I’m just going to leave this here as President Bartlet and the writers of The West Wing put it far better than I could

President Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?
While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or is it okay to call the police?
Here’s one that’s really important ’cause we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town: Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side?
Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

I don't see that argument being presented, beep. I think some people are trying to explain why they feel that FGM shouldn't be 'compared' with circumcision, and I agree with that.

DS was circumcised at 3 because of medical reasons and I really wish he hadn't. I am against circumcisions because of religious reasons.

However, I do strongly believe that FGM is not comparable to circumcision. I could explain why but I think that would be slightly patronising towards you as I think you can easily judge the differences yourself. Yes there are risks with circumcisions but a vast majority of circumcised men don't experience excruciating pain during sex, can enjoy orgasms, are fertile, it doesn't hurt when they pee, can masturbate, can enjoy a full sex life without pain.

“Bertrand,

The fact that you are refusing to engage with my points or are pretending that you do not understand them equally speaks volumes.”

I apologize- I thought I had engaged with your points. Could you highlight the ones I have missed and I will be happy to address them.