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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

999 replies

GladAllOver · 19/02/2018 16:10

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

OP posts:
hackmum · 21/02/2018 12:43

Lizzie48: "a lot of women who have been through FGM are still very willing to put their daughters through the same procedure. It's because they see it as a religious obligation, and also because they would be judged by all their relatives."

I see your point, but often in those cases women lack power, and there's a risk of ostracisation. In the US, you won't be ostracised for not having your son circumcised, and it's not a religious thing - it's purely a cultural tradition. Yet adult men who have been circumcised still choose to have their sons circumcised. I do find it odd, and of course perhaps they don't know what it would be like to be uncircumcised, but it clearly isn't something that causes them a great deal of anguish.

Headofthehive55 · 21/02/2018 12:48

he might grumble a bit
Words fail me they really do. it might have been a bit difficukt
You couldn't stand up for your son to allow him his own choices? Really?

WildWindsBlowing · 21/02/2018 13:03

Lizzie you mentioned that you are an abuse survivor, and I am sorry this happened Flowers.

Perhaps the groups of people currently advocating circumcision (including 'clean' Trump types) can learn to empathise with baby boys: cutting the genitals of a powerless baby is abuse too.

Because babies will apparently forget what has happened, and because if there are no obvious side effects from the circumcision (such as an infection) it will seem to have been safe, people presume no harm has been done.

But we now can be fairly certain that babies remember subconsciously, and in their bodies, the violence done to them in their powerless state, and it remains with them all their lives.
(n.b being willing to pass the abuse on to the next generation is not proof that the original abuse cannot have been all that bad. Sadly, passing abuse on can be typical.)

Perhaps too, on a conscious level, some grown men who had this done to them as babies will wonder if this is what they really would have wanted for themselves had they ever had the choice in the first place.

grannytomine · 21/02/2018 13:13

Some time ago I was listening to a radio programme about FGM. The mothers and grandmothers seemed to sometimes be the ones who wanted this done. One reason was they felt their daughters wouldn't find a husband if it wasn't done. One woman said her mother and grandmother arranged it for a day when her father wasn't around and he was horrified when he found out. This programme made me question the idea that the women are powerless, one woman seemed to feel that if she had suffered why shouldn't her daughters? It was chilling.

I saw a programme on BBC last year, it was in Kenya and one woman was leading a campaign against it and you saw her meeting a girl whose mother was protecting her from having it done so I don't think it is always women but I do think it sometimes is. In that programme a young man was also involved in the campaign and he had to get out of the car when he saw girls being taken for FGM, he was so upset he stood by the road crying and saying they had achieved nothing. It is complicated.

Morphene · 21/02/2018 13:16

Why do people talk about rates of sexually transmitted diseases in reference to circumcision of babies? Are these babies having a lot of risky sex then? If they then I think we can all agree they have bigger problems than circumcision.

If (and I think its an IF) circumcision reduces infection rates then men can opt for it FOR THEMSELVES when they are men.

Morphene · 21/02/2018 13:18

'tradition' is such a poor reason for doing anything....but it is such a very powerful reason. It ties into all our sense of belonging...which is such an important part of being human.

In the case of ritual child abuse I think we have to at least try and suck it up that we may have to break with the comfort blankets of our cultural identities.

greensockbluesock · 21/02/2018 13:23

It makes me sick when babies have their ears pierced

However there's not (in the U.K) any religious/cultural pressures for babies to have their ears pierced

There clearly is for circumcision on the other hand. Would we be able to ban ear piercing first and class that as child abuse?

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 21/02/2018 13:26

It is super powerful Morphene I have seen its effects first hand on my DM and even on myself and I was only on the fringe really.

Going against something thats always been done hurts you - and your family, seeing things in a fresh light and waking up as it were is a very hard and traumatic thing to go through.

But its happening in all sorts of areas of life in all sorts of societies even the so called progressive ones like the USA - its happening over guns FGM, circumcision etc etc. And as pp have noted, this is what happens when change is due and change comes.

The sharing of information and being able to join a group on line with members all over the world means its harder to perpetute myths and control ideas.

Hence Circ rates are dropping.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 21/02/2018 13:36

@lizzie48

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20527625

Following the death of a baby in Manchester after a home circumcision a mother has called for mobile circumcision services to be banned.

The trial of nurse Grace Adeleye who carried out the circumcision on Goodluck Caubergs heard that up to three children a month are admitted to the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital because of bleeding after home-based circumcisions.

Adeleye was found guilty of the manslaughter of Goodluck by gross negligence by a jury at Manchester Crown Court on 14 December.

Manchester-based solicitors JMW are currently investigating a separate case of a family from West Sussex who claim their son was left in "excruciating pain" after a home circumcision.

The doctor involved in the case said the redness and swelling her son experienced was a normal part of the healing process.

The mother said she had arranged for her son to be circumcised at home because she did not live near to a clinic that offered the procedure.

Trusted the doctor
Explaining why she wanted her son circumcised, she said: "I foun"I found a mobile circumcision doctor on our local mosque's website.

"My husband is Muslim and proud to be Muslim and our children are Muslim too.

"We put our trust in the doctor, going to a clinic would have involved a lot of travelling but it was because he is a doctor that swung it."

She said the doctor visited their home in September when her son was aged 22 months.

Circumcision in the UK
Most circumcisions in the UK are done for non-therapeutic reasons (religious). The operation is usually done under local anaesthetic or without anaesthetic soon after birth
Medical circumcision is more commonly done on older children and adults
The Scottish government has agreed that religious circumcision can be carried out under general anaesthesia by trained paediatric surgeons at one of four paediatric centres under the NHS
Currently no formal qualifications are required to perform the operation
Jewish boys are circumcised when they are eight-days-old by a Mohel - a Jewish person trained in the practice of brit milah, the covenant of circumcision. Mohel's are often, but not always, qualified doctors. Most Muslim boys and some Christians are also circumcised as babies. There is no equivalent of a Jewish Mohel in Islam or Christianity with procedures usually carried out by doctors
Religious circumcision is largely unregulated in the UK - but medical professionals who have botched private operations have faced sanctions from the GMC
Some medical experts have called for religious circumcision to be offered on the NHS to minimise the risk of post-operative complications
What is male circumcision and why is it performed?

Male circumcision: The ultimate parenting dilemma

Is religious circumcision of babies ethical?

About five days after the circumcision she said the swelling on her son's penis started increasing and he was in "excruciating pain".

She said she took him to her GP who prescribed antibiotics for an infection.The mother said she contacted the doctor who performed the circumcision who said she should wait three weeks for the skin to heal.

Her doctor said: "In my leaflet and at the time I went to do the circumcision I did explain redness and swelling is normal in healing, that it will go away in two weeks but it can happen."

He said he did not think there were any complications arising from the procedure.

The mother said she took her son to a paediatric urologist who she said told her not enough skin had been removed and her son would require surgery to remove some skin and a granuloma which had formed to prevent deformity as he grew up.

"I've been left with a child who refuses to have his nappy changed, who screams if you go to touch it [his penis] and he needs surgery to fix it," she said.

She said she would like mobile circumcisions to bbe made illegal and better signposting from GPs to private clinics for parents who want the procedure.

But her doctor said a clinic is no more sterile than a home environment.

He said: "It's not illegal or unethical to do it at home.

"I use a one-use pack of sterile instruments. An operating theatre has special ventilation to make it sterile but a clinic doesn't."

Melissa Gardner, a specialist medical negligence solicitor at JMW, said: "Given the impact on their child, the family has significant concerns about the way the procedure was conducted.

"While it is too soon to know what the long-term effects will be, this case highlights the need for extreme care when performing circumcisions."

The mother said she has also referred her case to the General Medical Council.

Tainbri · 21/02/2018 13:38

I agree that a progressing civilised society should look very carefully at what is deemed "tradition"we'd still have public hangings, bear baiting, tortures in the tower and beheadings if nothing had changed since the time of Henry VIII! I do not accept that in 21st century there is a need to mutilate a baby's genitals in the name of any tradition or use religion as an excuse for this barbaric practice.

NotBadConsidering · 21/02/2018 13:40

If (and I think its an IF) circumcision reduces infection rates then men can opt for it FOR THEMSELVES when they are men.

It's a massive IF. Consider this analogy:

You're stood in bare feet. Someone throws 1000 drawing pins on the floor and you have to walk across. If you put one shoe on but leave the other foot bare, chances are you'll make it across the room without sticking yourself but you may end up wobbling and putting the bare foot down and sticking yourself.

Now consider the same scenario but someone throws 10 drawing pins on the floor and you put two shoes on. There's still a small chance you'll get stuck if one goes through your shoe but there's only 10 pins so the risk is low.

The first scenario is HIV in Africa and circumcision. The second scenario is HIV in the U.K. and wearing a condom.

Now also consider the penile cancer argument. Penile cancer is incredibly rare. All of the research regarding penile cancer and circumcision pre-dates the introduction of the HPV vaccine, HPV being the cause of penile cancer. The HPV vaccine will turn penile cancer from a very rare disease to a vanishingly rare disease. So we should circumcise babies for THAT reason?!

I'd like to line up 1000 16 year old uncircumcised boys and ask them would they rather wear a condom or have their foreskin cut off.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 21/02/2018 13:41

Indeed it used to be traditional to use the cain and corperal punishment in school, it was tradition to hang draw and quarter prisoners for some crimes.

I would simply like any work to any childs body to fall under a medical only remit. No ear piercing, no circ no fgm no changing or taking away or sticking holes in babies and small children untl the child makes up their own mind when they become and ...adult.

araiwa · 21/02/2018 13:42

Ban it

There are no arguments for it

beepthemeep · 21/02/2018 13:47

This is an interesting article on the bris ceremony. As we've seen on here, there is really only one argument for it - "tradition and ritual". Interesting to see so many people are now questioning whether that is enough:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/17/us-jewish-parents-question-circumcision

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 21/02/2018 13:57

another really interesting article thanks Beep.

The tide is turning, refreshing to read. It will die out soon in all but the poorest least educated places.

WildWindsBlowing · 21/02/2018 14:13

Thank you for that, Beep

Mummaly · 21/02/2018 14:23

It is not integral to the laws of nature otherwise nature wouldn't put it there, it belongs to s belief system and I agree it should be stopped. Some muslims believe that women should cover up, does that make it ok? I once saw a documentary on Judaism and they showed a baby having his foreskin cut off with a pair of scissors, no anaesthetic and I will never forget the sheik of agonising pain. It is basically torture. Their argument was that it is over quickly and the baby doesn't remember it. Pure Insanity.

samG76 · 21/02/2018 14:24

Seriously - do the Jews constitute the poorest and least educated group in society? Evidence seems to suggest the opposite.....

WildWindsBlowing · 21/02/2018 14:32

Re: education samG76 this is from the article Beep linked:
"American Jews, on the whole, are now more immersed in secular culture and thus more apt to look askance at the idea of a tribal scarification ceremony. High education levels and a natural aesthetic are also prompting questioning among younger Jews."

beepthemeep · 21/02/2018 14:38

Surely the less poor and the better educated you are, the more you should be questioning things?

Lizzie48 · 21/02/2018 14:38

Thank you for those links. It's horrible to think of that poor baby in Manchester. I do agree that there's no place for circumcision in the modern world, but I've no idea how you can go about stopping it. Legislation hasn't stopped FGM, sadly.

beepthemeep · 21/02/2018 14:47

More and more people questioning it, more religious leaders accepting it happening later in a child's life, fewer people like SamG accepting it because it's always been that way - that's how change will eventually come about, I think.

Reddlion · 21/02/2018 15:27

not religious but I think it's better and cleaner when I have been with exes who were uncut I got bv thrush and their penis had a odour. I won't go with guys who aren't cut.

BertrandRussell · 21/02/2018 15:35

Really? I won't go with guys who don't wash. Works fir me!

2boysDad · 21/02/2018 15:47

"I won't go with guys who aren't cut."

That's exactly the same opinion you'll hear from men in places like Somalia where FGM is expected of women.

That attitude disgusts me.

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