To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

How on earth does that conversation go down?

Third date - "do you want to come back to my place?"

"Well, it depends. Are you cut or not?"

Or do you just cut to the chase and demand dick pics before wasting your time?

*That's exactly the same opinion you'll hear from men in places like Somalia where FGM is expected of women.

That attitude disgusts me.*

Totally agree.

You won't go with guys who aren't cut because they're dirty?!

Have you heard of this great new invention called condoms

If the cost of banning circumcision was the loss of the Jewish and Muslim community (they left the country), would you still want it banned?

It wouldn't happen, would it, so it's a pointless question. There is an increasing proportion of members of both communities who don't believe in circumcision, or who believe it should be left till the person in question is old enough to give informed consent. If there was a ban, it would only operate in relation to children unable to give consent and who don't need it for medical reasons.

"Have you heard of this great new invention called condoms"

Or this other great new invention called soap?

I won't go with guys who aren't cut.

That's your prerogative, of course, but as an attitude it doesn't sit well with me. How would it sit with you if a man said "I won't go with women who haven't had a labiaplasty"?

Gnothergnu - it is a pointless question only because as detailed above it will never happen. It is relevant, though, not just in terms of who would leave for that reason but also who would consider leaving just because of the intolerant atmosphere.

You talk about"an increasing proportion" of both communities. There's not much evidence for this, but even if there were, suppose the rate dropped to 90% - what do you think they would do? remember that where countries expel their minorities, it doesn't usually end well for the country.

If the cost of banning circumcision was the loss of the Jewish and Muslim community (they left the country), would you still want it banned?

Taking child abuse seriously and actually listening to kids when they report abuse has mean that there's hardly any Top of the Pops footage you can still watch from the 1970s. You know what? I can live with that.

Some things are non negotiable in this world and not putting up with babies having bits chopped off them is one of those things. It's really quite simple. You can't have separate legal systems in the same county and given a choice between a) tolerating medieval religious practises and b) protecting kids I know where I stand.

If people left because they couldn't cut off part of their sons' bodies until their sons were old enough to choose?

Not sure we'd miss the sort of person who would put so much of a premium on that, that they'd relocate their entire family, house, job etc, to be honest.

I think most people would simply accept it and would wait until the boys were about 12 and able to decide for themselves.

I just worry that if circumcision of infant boys for non-medical reasons was banned, there would be a huge rise in the procedure being carried out undercover in less hygienic conditions, and therefore far greater incidence of complications. And of course it could be left for boys to choose for themselves later on, but that means more pain and slower recovery - so is that fair on the boys, given that for the vast majority of observant Jews it's got to happen?

I really don't like the idea of routine circumcision but can see different sides of the argument.

Sam-how do you square the consent question?

I how dreadful to refuse to sleep with some one unless they cut off part of their body!
Can you imagine if a man said I won't sleep with you unless you had a breast enlargement? One would hope you'd tell him where to go!

I think Sam answered that bert by saying he might grumble but that was nothing compared to how difficult it would be if she didn't.
Clearly more important to put her own comfort above that of her sons.

Big opinions on circumcision, but I expect a large majority of the same people are Pro-choice. I'm always astounded at the hypocrisy, outraged at a bit of extra skin that is removed from a male child without his consent, yet agree to the murder of children in the womb? It's legal to abort up until 24 weeks in the U.K. Google images of a baby in the wound at 24 weeks and see if you still want to bang your drums about how barbaric circumcision is.

Modern day thinking is hypocritical. Choose a side and stick to it. If you're against circumcision why not be against abortion too?

I'm always astounded at the hypocrisy, outraged at a bit of extra skin that is removed from a male child without his consent, yet agree to the murder of children in the womb?

Abortion is not the murder of children in the womb. If you’re fishing for support for your ideas, you need to stick to the facts.

Even the Greek Orthodox Church in Cyprus makes all Greeks wishing to be married have a blood test to determine whether they carry the thallasaemia trait, then strongly discourage having children if they still choose to marry.

If an Orthodox Church can advocate using contraception to try and eradicate a horrible disease, then I don’t see why other religions can’t make similar adjustments.

@expectbacklash that’s not analogous as abortion raises issues of the mother’s bodily autonomy. Most people objecting to circumcision on this thread have done so on the basis that when it is done on a child they can’t consent, and their bodily autonomy is thereby removed.

There are lots of decisions we've taken for the DS's that they might later grumble about

What I have read is far more than a grumble Sam I'm afraid, maybe you will get lucky and your son won't even think about it - but many men do.

They feel invaded, powerless, violated....a sense of loss of powerlessness.

Funny how we are always told, X religion says this cant be - but then people always find a way round it just like the Jews in that article are finding their ways round this supposed "has to be" tenement of the religion, where there is a will there is way

It also sounds very much like his needs and mental health come last but whatever "difficulties" you and your dh may have faced for not getting him done have come first.

Parenting IS PUTTING YOUR DC FIRST. Its this strong love that is causing other people to THINK before trotting it out over and over again son to son.

When I hear people bemoaning Pedo Catholic priests abusing boys, the Laundry scandal, yet another mass grave of babies found in Ireland etc, I dont feel people are attacking all catholic at all or want to persecute them or want them out the country I just feel they dont like these nasty areas of the faith.

Whatever "harm" you think you are suffering by this happening to other people's sons is less than the harm you would inflict by making a great part of the community feel that they did not belong here and were only here on sufferance. I beg you to find something else to worry about.

This morning I was reading about a community in 6th century Northern Europe who used to ritually bind their female babies' skulls so that they had lifelong slightly elongated heads - (making them (coincidentally) much easier to spot and identify in graves). As I read it I thought of 21st century male circumcision.

". I beg you to find something else to worry about."

Actually, I do worry about surgery being performed in people unable to consent and I will carry on worrying about it.

Did you indeed, Figment? As Andrew is, as far as I can see, the only person posting to this thread who has first hand experience of the issue, perhaps we should concede that he might just know better than us.