To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

SeriouslycanitgetWORSE, I think my DD was 13 when she had a tooth removed for orthodontic work. As I said earlier she had to convince orthodontist she was on board with the procedure. Several of my kids friends have also had teeth removed for orthodontic work but I don't know any who were under 12.

yes - it cant be a flippant thing to remove teeth from children. her dentist could remove her teeth esp the one with the slight decay but they say its unneccasry and always the very last resort.

Many men in states get it done by dads who want their sons to look like them...I couldnt forgive my husband either. its just male ritual whoever you dress it up.

I find the idea of dads and sons comparing to see if they look the same a bit strange. I must ask DH if he and our sons have ever whipped them out for a comparison.

ROTFLBSST, thank you for those kind words but it really doesn't bother me. I have a thick skin!

To me it's pretty clear cut. My tolerance of other people's religious beliefs runs out when they try to impinge them on people who don't share those beliefs. I don't believe anyone has the right to force their beliefs on anyone else. Which is what pretty much everyone here is trying to do.

Both Sam and Andrew have firsthand experience of the issue, which should trump what anyone else is saying, but nobody's listening to them. That's what I mean by religious intolerance. And what I have been repeating consistently for hours.

I find the tone of the whole thread depressing. It appears that secular society has learnt nothing in the last 80 years.

Actually Bluelady, it is crystal clear that it is religion that has learned nothing in the last 80 years - in fact, the last 800!

The suggestion that people would use this to get people they don't want here out of the country, or that people don't want Jews and Muslims in the country, is unbelievably offensive. How low will religious/cultural adherents stoop to defend their blinkers??! Nobody has said anything of the sort, save for one post that was quite clearly in response to a hysterical claim that all the Jews would LEAVE IMMEDIATELY.

All people are saying is, let the child be old enough to choose. But somehow that makes us bigoted/xenophobic/little Englanders? Give your head a sodding wobble!

It's not the Middle Ages any more. It's time to look at cultural, legal and religious practices and see if they still make sense.

Bluelady

My tolerance runs out when they try to impinge them on people who don't share those beliefs

So you think that 8 day old babies share the religious beliefs of their parents?

Or, if your argument is that a parent has the right to force an unnecessary, permanent physical procedure on a child for cultural reasons even before the child is Gillick competent, would you support my right to give my child a tattoo as I feel it's important to my culture?

If not then why?

or that people don't want Jews and Muslims in the country, is unbelievably offensive.

You realise that anti Semitism and Islamiphobia are on the rise here?

It may not be the intention of people on this thread but to say that some wouldn't want it to happen is naive.

Culture and religion aren't the same thing so your comparison is invalid. Yes, Jews are born Jewish. Judaism is passed down the maternal line.

A small shouty twatty minority might - but they're not the ones who would campaign to stop circumcision. They're more the disgusting type to throw bacon at a mosque.

Right you are, Bloodybridget

Right you are, Bloodybridget

Yes, Jews are born Jewish. Judaism is passed down the maternal line.

No. No-one is born religious.

It should only be allowed as a medical necessity or when the child becomes an adult and can fully consent to th procedure

I don't have an issue with religion. I do have an issue with religion when morals/law/human rights come into it.

We can't just allow religion to do whatever they please under the guise of 'religion'.

TBH I don't even like babies with ear piercing's, so circumcision is a massive no from me.

Especially as DH had it done and it was horrific for him. I told him about this thread, and he doesn't want to talk about it - he hates it so much.

Bluelady

You're comparison is invalid

Sigh.

I'm not sure you understand what a 'comparison' is. It's not identical otherwise it wouldn't be a 'comparison', it would be the exact same thing

Ok... If my religion required me to tattoo my child, would you support it?

(Please don't play the whole 'no religions require that' card. It's just tiresome. It's a hypothetical question)

Your thoughts?

I wouldn't support tattooing. I don't - as I've said at least six times now - support circumcision. I do support religious freedom. I wouldn't support any religion attempting to force circumcision on non believers. I don't support religious non believers attempting to force their social mores on those who do have religious believers.

Why you insist on interrogating me when I've been plain, open and honest about what I think I really don't know, Patriarchy. Do you hope to change my mind? You won't. Any more than I'll change yours. How about we agree to differ?

I said earlier that Banning male circumcision is as anti-semitic or anti-muslim as banning FGM is anti-christian

It appears this statement of fact has been questioned on the basis that you have to circumcise to be Jewish.

How on Earth do people come to that conclusion when, for example, only 40% of Jews in Sweden do it? I mean around 3% of Jews living in Israel are now opting against it. Apparently its not totally crucial to the religion after all....

" I do support religious freedom"

"Religion told me to do it" is a shit excuse for anything and shouldn't get a free pass, especially when it's a choice being forced on a baby with no say in the matter.

I suspect that one day we'll look back and wonder how the heck anybody ever thought it was a good idea to do this to babies

"@Bluelady I'm sorry for the reactions you've had on here"

Hmm. Interesting that you feel the need to apologise to someone who has had her support of infant circumscusion challenged, but not to the people who have been accused of anti semitism or islamophobia because they do not support non medically advised surgery being performed on people unable to consenr

I dont know how you cannot compare FGM with circumcision both are the mutilation of a child's gentiles.

talking about specfics of what would happen to a boy if the exact degree of babartity took place on him, doesnt take into account the hundreds of issues and complications hundreds, thousands and world wide millions of boys will face at the direct result of their parents choosing this mustilatin for them.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/20/male-infant-circumcision-judge-practice

No formal attempts have been made to quantify the extent of medical complaints arising from circumcisions. We know that hundreds of babies and children are admitted to British hospitals every year with infections, uncontrolled bleeding or other complications. Shockingly, despite horrific evidence of serious injuries and even deaths arising from botched circumcisions conducted by unqualified practitioners in non-clinical conditions, there remains no legal regulation of circumcision in this country. Anyone can set up shop as a circumcision practitioner in Britain today

Its time we did know what is going on and had some concrete figures back.

We need to go further, however, in challenging and exploding prevailing myths about circumcision, such as the idea that it is painless for babies, that it is no more invasive than an ear-piercing, or that it has proven health and hygiene benefits. All these ideas have now been resoundingly and repeatedly disproven by medical science

Bluelady

So you wouldn't personally support tattooing a child (or circumcision) but you do support my religious freedom to tattoo my child or have him circumcised?

🤨

The reason you are getting hammered on here is precisely because you haven't been clear until that last statement.

Supporting people's 'religious freedom' to mutilate their children is supporting the practice.

FFS it's not difficult to grasp that point.

You may sense a hint of frustration in my replies to you, because what is glaringly obvious to everyone reading this doesn't seem to be obvious to you.

If I said I don't support execution of homosexuals, but I do support other people's religious freedom to execute homosexuals if they have a deeply held belief they should, would that be ok?

Please don't go down the road of 'execution and circumcision are completely different'.

I know they are

IM TRYING TO GET YOU TO THINK ABOUT THE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE.

Morphene

So much of what you had to do in religions you dont have to do at all, even in Catholicism which is not as open to so much random interpretation as Islam is - has gone through revolution just in my short 40 year life time. I remember my mother being very put out when sibling divorced, every one was embarrassed...stuff like that, babies out of wedlock.

My goodness a few years later she was HAPPILY divorced herself. It takes time, loosing of the hold religion has.

I have read so much about the Hadiths how many muslims move away from them, they are not the core of the religion, you dont need to do half the things some Muslims think they do and indeed many are moving away from old fashioned mores and modernising,

A poster said up thread once they get hold of you they dont like to let you go and thats so true.

I wouldn't support any religion attempting to force circumcision on non believers

But a baby is a non bloody believer

BertrandRussell, not once have I said I support infant circumcision. In fact I have several times said I don't. I do support the right of people to make personal choices on a religious basis which affect no one outside their family. When they start insisting on forcing their beliefs on others I'll take issue with it.