To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

Mtzitza bpeh is absolutely not an orthodox tradition. It was practiced by one tiny sect and comdemned by the vast majority.

Ffs, get your facts right

Umm read that article I just linked too. Then tell me people know whats best to keep their babies healthy and alive and in tact! People taking their fragile new borns to butchers above kebab shops, where no anesthetic is used, no hygiene...no medical conditions at all.

No they dont know whats best for their dc! NO!

Umm

I'm afraid we do know better. Its called progress. Your argument from popularity is absolute nonsense and if taken to it's logical conclusion would have us still allowing Chinese foot binding and FGM.

You still haven't given a single justification for circumcision of infants other than 'its what has always been done'

Have you actually thought about your position or did you just pick which side to take at random?

Ffs, get your facts right well I dont like to link to the Guardian usually but its not my facts actually its from the Guardian.

Feedme1,

I'm not interested in a tit-for-tat Muslims versus Christians versus Jews discussion. I entirely accept that Muslims have done their share of oppressing too.

My point is that this is another example of a dominant ideology suppressing a minority ideology. For those who think the ban right because the minority ideology is clearly wrong, my response is that such reasoning justified all manner of frightful behaviour in Europe over that last 100 years.

In what way is arbitrary male circumcision for religious/cultural reason more considered and educated a decision than female genital mutilation, Ummm? As far as I am aware, FGM is carried out under the same guise - for culture or religion.

Actually muslims tended to treat jews and christiand far better than Christians ever did to muslims and Jews. It wasn't Muslims who.carried out the inquisition, it wasnt muslims who carried out the holocaust. Christianity doesnt have a good track record in Europe to be honest.

it was muslims that carried out the deadliest genocide in history islamic conquest of india 80 million deaths

Footbinding? FGM?

I think you need to take a lie down. I don't like male circumcision, but those are silly comparisons.

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 19-Feb-18 20:05:17
Andrew

"Sex with the circumcised men I have dated has been less good than with the uncircumcised. One couldn’t come unless being given a handjob so aggressive I thought I’d do lasting damaged.

So yes, I’d say it does have an impact on sexual performance. Though if you have only ever slept with circumcised men or are a circumcised man then you wouldn’t necessarily know that."

Alis, you sound ridiculous. Surely you can understand that your limited anecdotal evidence is not representative of the majority of circumcised men.

I'm American and dh is British (and uncircumcised). There is no difference. I have discussed this at length with my friends who have experienced both, and with my American male friends (who all claim they are very glad to have been circumcised as babies).

All of my male relatives, friends, and previous partners in America were circumcised. I've never met a circumcised adult man who wished he had not been circumcised.

My ds is not circumcised because British dh wanted him to look like dad, and that's fine with me.

But if dh had not expressed an opinion, ds would have been circumcised (because that's my preference).

Toadinthehole

A dominant ideology suppressing a minority ideology is also what stopped burning people at the stake, ended slavery and raised the age of consent from 12. (Amongst many other achievements)

Trying to spin this as some kind of religious oppression is a bit disingenuous to say the least.

Dominant ideology v minority ideology? What about the dominant adult and the vulnerable child? Children have died, how much more evidence do we need that this isn't acceptable?

Toad

Those are silly comparisons

Are they? Why? Can you articulate the difference?

All of my male relatives, friends, and previous partners in America were circumcised. I've never met a circumcised adult man who wished he had not been circumcised. I could introduce you to my husband?

In the US, the popularity of circumcision dates back 140 years to Dr Lewis Sayre, one of the founders of the American Medical Association, says David Gollaher author of Circumcision: A History of the World's Most Controversial Surgery.

We think of scientists as very objective, but scientists are people
Brian Earp, Medical ethicist
Sayre believed that many medical conditions had their root in a dysfunction in the genital area, and that circumcision could be used to treat a startling array of problems, from depression to mental health issues, syphilis and epilepsy.

Circumcision was also promoted as a way of discouraging masturbation, and was regarded as clean and hygienic. It was particularly popular among the higher classes, and was seen as a sign of being well-off enough to afford a birth at hospital rather than at home.

Sayre's theories were later debunked, but not before being widely picked up in other English-speaking countries, in particular in the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, Gollaher says.
.......................................................................................................
The German court ruling in June was framed in terms of children's rights, as was a ruling in 2010 by the Royal Dutch Medical Association, which argued that circumcision of boys "conflicts with a child's right to autonomy and physical integrity".

It said there was a good case for banning the practice, but stopped short of this, recommending instead a "powerful policy of deterrence".

In Norway too, the children's rights ombudsman is now recommending Jews and Muslims conduct a symbolic ritual, instead of a circumcision, and some MPs want a minimum age of 18.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19072761

Another thing to note is people who circumcise are going to bring their child up in the belief its a good thing so it doesnt surprise me if some men think its a good thing its all they know!
who wants think their parents, their care givers could harm them?

Okaaaayyyyy!! So now we are playing which people of faith are the baddest and which are the goodest.

Who decides?

Well yes. Footbinding results in constant pain. FGM results in constant risk of infection, and compete loss of sexual enjoyment.

If male circumcision was in any way comparable, the patriarchy (rather than you) would have stopped it years ago.

You cannot be serious.

**So bluelady, do you think that Italy should still be crucifying and stoning people because the romans did it?

Do you think that FGM is ok because lots of African and ME countries do it?

Do you think that catholic women should be denied contraception?

Do you think that it's right that a Muslim woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's, or that if she is sentenced to death by stoning she should be buried up to the neck, whilst a man is only buried up to the waist, therefore greatly increasing his prospects of escape compared to hers?

Etc etc etc. It's 2018. It's time we stopped allowing scriptures from thousands of years ago dictate what is acceptable. Any devout man can go and have it done when he's old enough to choose. This is a tiny step, but it is a step.**

Everything beepthemeep said upthread.

There seems to be a growing online community of men who are unhap@py they were circumcised as babies or young children.
LeighaJ why do you think there should be an exemption on religious grounds?

burning people at the stake, ended slavery and raised the age of consent from 12.

And the freedom not to wear a yellow star?

Toad

And circumcision permanently deadens the penis and reduces nerve sensetivety as well as posing a serious risk of infection. (Both of those statements are facts)

All because 'God' says we should do it.

It's 2018 for f##k's sake, grow up.

I'm deadly serious.

I haven’t read all of the responses but I did see where someone asked for input from someone who had circumcised their child for religious reasons. So, here I am. I’m both American and Jewish. Both of my sons were circumcised on the 8th day after birth, as commanded by G-d, and reflecting the covenant between G-d and Abraham that is one of the primary tenets upon which Judaism is based. It’s not a mere tradition, and it’s not based on outdated hygiene practices. It comes directly from G-d. There are very, very few observant Jews who don’t circumcise.

In my experience, having a baby circumcised at eight days old does not appear in any way to be more than fleetingly painful for the child. The procedure takes literally 5 seconds. Both of my sons cried for a moment but were easily placated by being fed. I can’t get into the head of a newborn but I can tell you that neither of my sons appeared to be in any pain or discomfort in the hours and days after the procedure. (By contrast, when they received vaccinations they screamed bloody murder and were cranky for at least a day afterward. I’m also told by friends who had their babies’ frenulums cut for breastfeeding purposes that it was way more painful and traumatic than circumcision.) They were both happy babies who slept and ate well, which is all you can really expect of a baby that age.

One of my few American friends who chose not to circumcise her son ended up having to do for medical reasons when the child was around six, and that was a VERY different experience. I don’t think we’d be doing Jewish men any favours by “allowing” them to be circumcised as adults instead.

Most American men I know have been circumcised, and I’ve never heard any of them complain about anything related to their penises, or sex in general. The partners I’ve had have always seemed to enjoy themselves quite a bit . (It’s also true that circumcision reduces the risk of certain sexually transmitted diseases, penile cancer, and cervical cancer in female partners. But that’s not why we do it.)

The comparison to FGM is inapposite to say the least. FGM is very painful and causes lifelong pain and suffering. If I’m not mistaken, the very point of it is to prevent women from experiencing sexual pleasure. The pain resulting from circumcising a newborn is more on par with ear piercing.

One of my few American friends who chose not to circumcise her son ended up having to do for medical reasons when the child was around six, and that was a VERY different experience. I don’t think we’d be doing Jewish men any favours by “allowing” them to be circumcised as adults instead.

I won’t be returning to this thread to read or respond, as I’ve no interest in being berated or called a monster. But someone asked for experiences so here you go.

Toad

And the freedom not to wear a yellow star

You are Godwin and I claim my £5.

It's not anti Semitic to say it's unacceptable to chop pieces off a newborn boys penis.

I've never met a circumcised adult man who wished he had not been circumcised

I haven't met an uncircumcised one who wishes they were circumcised. There probably are some, there are certainly many online communities of circumcised men who wish they weren't. The difference of course is that the adult uncircumcised one can make an informed decision about his own penis.

And yes my anecdotal experience is the same as Alis, they are way less sensitive.

Have a watch of this (only 90 seconds of it, from 1:00 to 2:30) for a better description than I could ever give for the reasons why religious circumcision is wrong.