To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

Calling 2 billion plus people indoctrinated is a perfect example of cultural superiority

Yes it is.

Andrew/Um

Cutting chunks off a newborn babies penis because your God told you to is wrong.

Just because you have gotten away with it in the past doesn't make it ok.

It's not anti-Semitic or anti-islamic to say that.

So the babies that bled to death, died from infections, the ones taken to hospital after botched jobs... Are just necessary collateral damage!?

Um

2 billion plus people are indoctrinated. (I suspect the real number is higher)

Unless your argument is that they all came to their religious position through reason or logic once they reached maturity?

Gotten away with it in the past?

Wtf?

Well, how lucky for all those jewish, muslim and african boys that mumsnet is here as the global police

Fyi, it is completely legal in the uk and highly unlikely it will ever be made illegal. Thank goodness.

It doesn't do any harm does it? Not like FGM where the purpose s to make sex painful for a woman. I thought many Americans routinely circumcised, whatever religion

Toadinthehole

*What a nasty discussion.

I also disagree with infant circumcision. But the remarks such as "off they fuck then" with regards to Jews and Muslims are in extremely poor taste given the history of Europe. Ther former were progressively expelled from western Europe, forced into eastern Europe and finally into Russia where they suffered from pogroms and lynchings. Perhaps if they don't leave someone is going to suggest the Final Solution.

Southern Spain used to contain a sizeable Muslim population; a result of the military conquest of Spain by Muslims. After it reverted to Christian rule the Muslim population were obliged to convert or face expulsion.

Please don't make remarks like "they can fuck off then". Historical treatment of minorities in Europe has been terrible, and the reason we now have human rights is to protect them.*

Right, compared to the amazing treatment Christians suffered at the hands of Muslims, or the Jews suffered at the hands of Muslims. Oh & im sure no one was injured when they conquered southern Spain. Bit of a selective memory you have there @toadinthehole.
Everyone has been a c*nt in history, why are Caucasians the only ones who are being held accountable for the actions of others?

Patriarchy

Who are you to determine whos indoctrinated and who isnt?

They're just as jntelligent and rational as you although i know.you find this hard to believe.

Umm

Can you justify infant circumcision with any argument other than 'its always been done'?

I'll wait.

i have not read the full thread by on the first page someone said it was part of the jewish faith first point would be so what! second would be in the torah 'You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord' Lev: 19:28
same for the quran although circumcision is not mentioned however this is mentioned in the quran "We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" ( Surah: At-Tin, 95:4)

Andrew

Sex with the circumcised men I have dated has been less good than with the uncircumcised. One couldn’t come unless being given a handjob so aggressive I thought I’d do lasting damaged.

So yes, I’d say it does have an impact on sexual performance. Though if you have only ever slept with circumcised men or are a circumcised man then you wouldn’t necessarily know that.

The "off you fuck" was completely unacceptable and has been deleted.

But the important thing here is the matter of consent. Non medically advised body changing surgery should not be performed on people unable to consent.

Feedme

Actually muslims tended to treat jews and christiand far better than Christians ever did to muslims and Jews. It wasn't Muslims who.carried out the inquisition, it wasnt muslims who carried out the holocaust. Christianity doesnt have a good track record in Europe to be honest.

Ali I think you might be extrapolating a bit from 1 bad experience there.

Alis

Have you slept with enough men to.make a statistically signifcant sample?

Performing circumcision (that is not medically indicated) on a baby or child who can't consent is wrong. I would welcome a ban, if i didn't think it would lead to a rise in "underground" practices and the risks associated. I really do think it's cruel, and unjustifiable.

Totally agree that it boils down to babies and young children being unable to consent, and that being wrong. My son's body is his, not mine. I have no right to get healthy parts of it removed. If he wants to be circumcised once he's old enough to consent, then that is fine. I wouldn't dissuade him.

Umm

Believing in things that are not evidenced in the real world, purely on the basis it's what your parents told you to do is an almost literal definition of indoctrination.

Also intelligence doesn't really come into it. As people often point out, there are some very clever religious people, it's possible because of a phenomenon called 'compartmentalisation,' you can Google it.

Interestingly though, when people aren't brought up to believe in something as children, they are statistically far less likely to believe in it as adults.

Why do you think that is?

From a Muslim country and a Muslim family, though I’m atheist (family couldn’t be bothered to get the village together to stone me for apostasy). All the men in my family are circumcised and happy about it, have chosen to have it done to their sons. I had a huge falling out with my parents as I wouldn’t have my kids done. My SIL told my brother to get to fuck as well. Irreparably mutilating a child’s genitals for non medical reasons is abuse. How could it not be?

Barbarian - there was one particularly
bad one.

Oh sorry Ummm - didn’t realise only your anecdotal experiences counted. My mistake

I don't have a problem with a ban as long as there are exceptions for if it's medically necessary or for religious reasons.

I'm firmly against circumcision despite being from a country where it is considered a normal thing to do but I'm also against telling other religions what is and isn't okay for them to do within reason.

Two males in my husband's family had to be circumcised as adults for medical reasons...cuz seriously what adult male would choose to have it done otherwise. 🤔

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/male-circumcision-baby-goodluck

uch gruesome deaths following circumcision may be rare in the UK, but non-fatal complications are anything but. Manchester Royal Children's hospital reports that it treats around three cases of bleeding circumcisions every month. In 2009 alone, in one hospital in Birmingham, 105 boys were treated at A&E for complications after circumcisions. One per month had life-threatening injuries. In June, a letter to the newsletter of the British Association for Community Child Health reported on some of the injuries caused by unlicensed circumcision practitioners in the Bristol area. They included a fractured skull caused by a baby falling off a kitchen table during a home circumcision.

An audit of circumcisions conducted at an Islamic school in Oxford, and reported in the Journal of Public Health this year, revealed that 45% of boys had suffered complications. All these examples have one common feature: they were conducted in non-clinical conditions. While it is illegal to tattoo a child in the UK, there is no law to prevent anyone from setting up a business in permanently slicing the sensitive, delicate skin from boys' genitals without anaesthetic. In Rusholme, Manchester, there is a notice on a first floor window offering circumcisions, quite literally in a backstreet above a kebab shop. This is utterly obscene.

Extrapolate this across the world and we are confronted with a horrific tide of death, mutilation and unnecessary suffering.

In New York recently, it emerged that 11 babies in as many years had contracted herpes during their circumcisions, of whom two died and two more suffered brain damage. The infection was caused by the Orthodox ritual of metzitzah b'peh, in which the mohel puts his mouth directly on the baby's bleeding penis and sucks the wound clean There is no way of knowing the extent to which the same practice is being employed in the UK, but there is nothing to legally proscribe it.

Today, like every day, others just like her will be cutting away at little boys' genitals with nothing but scissors, warm water and some olive oil or Vaseline.

^^ Buts is a harmless little snip apparently!

LeighaJ

Except if it's medically necessary or for religious reasons

Those are literally the only reasons people have it done.

🤨

Patriarchy

You dont know better than 2 billion people what is right for their sons.

Perhaps they made a considered and educated decision?