AIBU to complain about male nursery manager?

[Barnabix]

DD’s nursery has a relatively new manager (male). DD is school age, so attends as after-school and holiday care.

He seems good in a number of respects. He has implemented a couple of activities for the kids on certain days during the week, e.g. one day per week the nursery hire the local hall and the kids get to play football there instead of being cooped up in the nursery.

I think this is good. Also initially felt positively about the fact that he is male. He seems more enthusiastic and energetic than some of the women who work there.

Here are my questions to you wise ladies:

1.AIBU to find this creepy? Twice now I’ve seen him pick up and cuddle one of DD’s friends (6 years old). In a playful way, she’s come up to him and sort of put her arms up asking for her to pick him up. It just doesn’t sit well with me. It would be totally different if it was a baby/toddler. This is a school age child who needs boundaries.. especially in physical contact with caregivers e.g. teachers? He might be well meaning, but what about if someone in the future wasn’t, and this girl thinks its okay for grown men to be cuddling her .. teachers of 4/5 year olds aren’t supposed to hug their pupils, so why should he?
Also, if he does that when I’m there, how tactile is he when I’m not..?

1. I really don’t think he sticks governmental requirements of staffing ratios and requirements when he takes the kids on little outings. E.g. for a walk round the village etc. I think he takes them himself when strictly speaking it should be 2 adults. He also never gives ETA of when they’ll be back, so twice now I’ve come to collect DD and been left waiting 15/20 mins for them to get back. AIBU to think he should issue a timetable in advance of what they’re doing? Or even say in the morning “we won’t be back till 5.15pm today because we have X planned”. It seems obvious to me that you would just plan to always be back by say 4pm when parents start to do pick ups ?!
2. I don’t even know if they get their afternoon snack when they’re on these adventures. It all just seems pretty last minute. Although I like the fact they’re outside and doing stuff obviously.

Am i being too pedantic?!

Annie, no, what I mean is those who have CP training will understand what I’m referring to in the regs. This is not a matter of my personal opinion, I’m not looking for a debate on the merits on legislation which is aimed to keep children safe.

Someone with CP training, e.g. a nursery manager should know the regs and follow them. The regs are in place to protect the welfare of children. Therefore, not following them indicates something.

That something could be that they are a bit lax, or that they have a disregard for them! Neither is great in my book.

Because 6 year olds are heavy and likely he can do it more easily?

In a professional capacity, I don’t see what’s wrong with setting the kids’ expectations that they’re cared for, but that cuddles and rough-housing are not part of that

Because it’s a fucking miserable way of living your life, mistrusting any man that goes near your child. Statistically your child is far more ‘at risk’ with your brother, your grandfather, your father or those on her father’s side. Do you stop them picking her up or cuddling her? Do you insist they never go anywhere with her without another adult present?

Jesus wept.

Hugging children is not against the regs.

How ridiculous Annie. Simmer down.

Me simmer down?

It’s not me frothing at the mouth because ‘shock horror’ a man picked up a child or takes a few of them out for a walk...

So far, you have not described anything which is definitively breaking regs. The trip situation MIGHT be, depending on the ratio situation where you are and whether he's following appropriate procedures.

I did a placement at a lovely nursery recently, children were given hugs - I spent much of one day with one wee lass sat on my knee, the nursery nurse was often carrying a wee one around. Even the manager had someone on her knee most of the time. It felt a lovely, safe and nurturing place - just what wee ones need when they're starting off in new enviornments such as nursery and school. I'd rather send my child there than somewhere where contact is actively discouraged.

You have NO evidence that he isn't following rules.

You think he might be - but to me, as a teacher, it sounds like you need to educate yourself. Hugging in a group setting is fine. Ratio of 1:8 school age children outside the setting is fine.

Your attitude towards a young child getting a hug - not fine. My childminder hugs my six year old, picks up my six year old and is generally affectionate with my six year old and that is a GOOD thing. Her 17 year old son plays games with my six year old and the other mindees. Again, this is a GOOD thing. Neither of them are paedophiles, they're just good people who like children.

You deny it, but you are being sexist - and that's not ok.

I'm cp trained.
I would lift and hug a 6 year old as would most of the staff I work with.
I wouldn't think twice about it.
In fact yesterday I did, one of the littles I look after's big sister who I had from a baby came in with Dad at drop off. I held my arms out she charged over I picked her up gave her a huge bear hug and told her how much I missed her.

Until you know for sure about the legalities of the ratios then find out if he actually is taking them out alone then you're being unreasonable.

Your child won't starve if not getting snack but again I would find out for sure before complaining.

To summarise these are all your issues that you either think may be happening or you think it's wrong.
The only people that can help you with this is actually the people at the setting.

I have not seen any of the female after school staff doing picking up like he does

That might be a problem but it could also just be down to the fact that 6 year olds are relatively heavy and on the whole it's easier for a man to pick them up than for a woman to do so.

And, before you tell me to 'simmer down' - before becoming a teacher I worked with child sexual offenders, male and female. I know far more than anyone should ever have to about child sexual abuse, how children are accessed, grooming, the actual abuse itself. I've sat in rooms one to one with people who raped babies. I have an horrific working knowledge of the most depraved things adults have done to children. They haunt me.

I still think you are wrong.

Can confirm that there is no mouth frothing Annie, thank goodness for that

Being prudent about the safety of DCs is not something I’ll be made
to feel ashamed of.

I’m not complacent when it comes to new people being around DC. Being inquisitive and alert is instinctive to parents, especially when accompanied by an uneasy gut feeling.

This has been a useful sounding board, thanks all!

Tell us which rule or regulation has been broken please, as you can see some of us are really not 'getting it'.

Regardless of ratio there should always be more than 1 member of staff present for case of emergency or accident/injury for example

A hug in front of other staff, other children and parents is not a dangerous thing.

No, no, no. Did we not just see an olympic doctor convicted at trial for abusing girls in his care in plain sight?

When a child predator grooms, they do not just groom the child, they groom everyone around them.

This is attitude is very dangerous. It has enabled people to get away with abusing children for decades. It has to be challenged.

I'm not saying definitively that the man in question in the OP is a paedophile. I'm merely pointing out that it's incredibly naive to think that child abusers only do it in secret. The normalisation and excusing of the grooming in plain sight is part of the MO.

Red flags for people with an unnatural interest in children are:

Number one - wanting to spend a lot of time with children, over and above a 'normal' adult tolerance. Children are testing, and exhausting. It's natural to want a break from them after a period of engagement with them. Any adult who actively seeks out the extended company of children and doesn't appear to tire of it normally, especially if the company is in a one-to-one setting, or away from other adults: that's a massive red flag and should be paid attention to.

Number two - if, when challenged or asked to change their behaviour, that person becomes defensive or aggressive. To use the OP's case as an example, if you said to the man in question: 'We've got a new rule, you can't hug the kids and you have to have at least two adults when you take the kids out anywhere', the only right response from him would be, 'Okay, that's fine'. Any attempt to bend the rules for 'special circumstances' or aggressive deflection - 'How DARE you imply...', etc, etc, is another red flag.

No one wants to think badly of people. No one wants to feel like the sort of person who's tarring all men with the paedo brush. But if historical cases have taught us anything it's that child sex abuse is so much more widespread and endemic than anyone could've ever feared possible. And it with all the revelations about Bennel and the Catholic church, as well as Savile, Cyril Smith, Haute de la Garenne, etc, it feels like we still may not have even scratched the surface.

So I would say, if your radar bleeps even very faintly, do not try and rationalise it away. The consequences are too dire. We must err on the side of caution, unfortunately. Because we must pay attention to the lessons we are learning from historical cases.

Finally, the last thing I would say is that women are just as capable of being child sex abusers. The behaviour described in the OP - particularly the unscheduled mystery trips alone with the children - would have me very concerned even if it it were a woman and not a man.

I completely understand that no one wants to live in a world of paranoia and distrust. But at the same time, I think it's necessary, unfortunately.

OP, your radar is bleeping. Don't ignore it.

I’m sorry, OP, but Annie is correct. If your child is 6 or younger and you are concerned about her being touched inappropriately by someone, the chances are 50% that the person will be a family member. In a further 43% of assaults on kids under 6, other kids are the offenders (Snyder, 2000). So, if you want to watch out for danger, there’s who you need to keep away from touching your child: other children and your own adult family members. Yet you’ve stated you feel fine with children running around together and that Annie was being ridiculous. Maybe examine the way you view things. Now, hopefully you don’t keep your child away from family members or other children (without reason) because that would be a very lonely life. Of course you’re just trying to be a good mom, and I get that; maybe just realize you have a biased view of “danger.” Almost all of us do.

I have no idea if you’re really being logical about this male nursery worker, but I’ve told you the statistics, it sounds like the kids love him, and many other posters have told you that your first point is moot. If you are concerned about him arriving back late or not feeding children a snack that you pay for, perhaps just mention that so they can correct it.

My DH is a gymnastics head coach and you know has to physically lift girls, help them stretch, correct their shapes.People like the Op worry me.A lot!!

5, Does your DH stick to whatever the ratio requirements are for him being alone with the girls?

Does he do what the job entails in terms of technical correcting of form etc, or does he pick the girls up/embrace/cuddle them?

Frankly, I don’t see the connection, 5?

It’s the over-familiarity. Not the maleness.

Unfortunately Glass, neither of those rules are even close to definitive especially the first, and neither are people's radars. There is a relatively sizeable group of people who are suspicious of ALL men in childcare and who will say that every single man sets off their radar. I've met plenty of them. I do understand that there are some people who make you intuitively uncomfortable but it has to be handled with care - and some people will shout about perfectly normal childcare practice if the provider is a man.

I would expect any good, experienced childcare provider to challenge an absolute no hugs rule with young children as it would hamper their ability to be responsive, comforting and supporting. No hugs would be an inappropriate rule. I wouldn't expect aggression but disagreement, yes.

And as for rule 1; "wanting to spend a lot of time with children, over and above a 'normal' adult tolerance."...well, if that was based on my tolerance I'd say that applies to everyone who works in a childcare setting! I couldn't do it FT, the noise alone would drive me insane. But again, IME people will comment about the amount of time a man spends with children at a far lower number of hours than they would with a woman - whether they're painting him as a saint for doing childcare or claiming nefarious motives.

The trips could be odd as they seem to be for not specific purpose, but so far the OP has given very few details and doesn't even know if he is going on his own or not, nor if they are planned trips. More information is needed to be able to make an informed decision about whether this is or is not problematic.

I'd ask about clarification of ratios when out and about and then leave it there if I was you.
You need to look at why you don't like men looking after children, because that isn't right.
There seems nothing wrong with his behaviour tbh.
You could always look after your own children or move somewhere with just female childcare.

He leaves on his own doesn't adhere to ratios and then comes back whenever he wants? Of course you should complain.