AIBU to complain about male nursery manager?

[Barnabix]

DD’s nursery has a relatively new manager (male). DD is school age, so attends as after-school and holiday care.

He seems good in a number of respects. He has implemented a couple of activities for the kids on certain days during the week, e.g. one day per week the nursery hire the local hall and the kids get to play football there instead of being cooped up in the nursery.

I think this is good. Also initially felt positively about the fact that he is male. He seems more enthusiastic and energetic than some of the women who work there.

Here are my questions to you wise ladies:

1.AIBU to find this creepy? Twice now I’ve seen him pick up and cuddle one of DD’s friends (6 years old). In a playful way, she’s come up to him and sort of put her arms up asking for her to pick him up. It just doesn’t sit well with me. It would be totally different if it was a baby/toddler. This is a school age child who needs boundaries.. especially in physical contact with caregivers e.g. teachers? He might be well meaning, but what about if someone in the future wasn’t, and this girl thinks its okay for grown men to be cuddling her .. teachers of 4/5 year olds aren’t supposed to hug their pupils, so why should he?
Also, if he does that when I’m there, how tactile is he when I’m not..?

1. I really don’t think he sticks governmental requirements of staffing ratios and requirements when he takes the kids on little outings. E.g. for a walk round the village etc. I think he takes them himself when strictly speaking it should be 2 adults. He also never gives ETA of when they’ll be back, so twice now I’ve come to collect DD and been left waiting 15/20 mins for them to get back. AIBU to think he should issue a timetable in advance of what they’re doing? Or even say in the morning “we won’t be back till 5.15pm today because we have X planned”. It seems obvious to me that you would just plan to always be back by say 4pm when parents start to do pick ups ?!
2. I don’t even know if they get their afternoon snack when they’re on these adventures. It all just seems pretty last minute. Although I like the fact they’re outside and doing stuff obviously.

Am i being too pedantic?!

Oh and by the way...I would be desperately upset to be taken aside by a parent and told that hugging/picking up a child, not even theirs was inappropriate or wrong.

Have a think about what you are insinuating.

Op this contact was child led, fine imo, young children still need comfort.

In Scotland the ratio is 1:8 for under 8's and 1:10 over.

However, if he's the manager of the setting then there's a good chance he has a teaching qualification and that will change the ratio again.

You're implying that he's a pedophile in number 1. So yes, YABVU.

3 wouldn't bother me.

2 is something to explore further. You say "you think" he does x, y, z. You don't know. Don't go in guns blazing until you have your facts straight.

I'm American and it would make some difference to me that he's male. It doesn't automatically mean he's a monster but males are the perpetrators of all major crime at a MUCH higher rate than females are so there is more chance of it. I know, it's not PC to say that but it's the truth.
A lot of good, sweet men really do like kids and would never harm them so no reason to accuse of course.
But listen to your gut if something seems off. You don't need something to really happen before you get concerned.

If it's really bothering you and things continue to seem off, I think it's best to trust your own judgment more than people online who aren't there to see what you see.

Very sad world when a six year old can’t have a hug. Mine got hugs from teachers (and even headteacher) in secondary school. Surely we need to teach children that it’s normal to show affection, to trust others, to respond to affection. We need to teach boundaries of acceptable behaviour but not ban all physical or emotional contact. When I was teaching my children to use roads safely I did it by teaching them where to stop at the edge of the road. I didn’t lock the door and tell them never to go outside for fear of being run over.

The thing is, each thing taken in isolation can be explained away as paranoia.

But taken in the round, it speaks to a pattern of behaviour that is showing he has poor physical boundaries with primary school aged children in a professional setting, where he is bound by expectations of professional conduct; and he like to engineer situations where he's alone with the children and no one knows where he is with them or what they're doing.

I personally find this pattern disturbing and would have no issue with raising it with the head. If his motives are entirely innocent then I'm sure he would have no problem at all giving the kids a high five instead of a hug and taking someone else with him on his impromptu trips.

I'd also say that the early primary years are hugely variable in terms of the amount of physical comfort some of the kids need, especially by the end of a full day. At this point in the year (up here anyway) the youngest of the P2s can still be 5.

Some wouldn't contemplate asking for a hug whilst some are still really pretty tactile. You have to be child led with it IMO, and a good member of staff will know their kids.

Hahah KalaLaka

Trust me, he’s got bounds more enthusiasm. Most of the ASC staff are pretty jaded and uninspiring compared with him.

This is situation specific. Not every women in every childcare position har har

The first one is fine. My nan used to be a volunteer at my primary school and she said when I was in Year 1 (so five or six) she came into the classroom and found me sat on the teacher's knee having a cuddle. No one would care if the nursery manager was female so what does the fact he's male got to do with it?

are teachers not allowed to hug children?

Agree with GlassHalfFullOfWee. Also when I was on placement at the nursery I was not allowed to be alone with any children without a member of staff being there, as well as not picking them up or hugging.

I would question the ratio thing to the staff there rather than report him. but the other two wouldn't bother me.

Can I ask OP would you even bring up the child being hugged thing if it was a women manager?

The thing is, the answers to the trips questions will tell you a LOT about him and his professionalism.

If the trips and impromptu, not risk-assessed, and he goes alone with the children, breaching ratios, then questions should be asked.

If however they are planned (even if last minute), they are safe in terms of numbers and adults, then it paints a picture of a more professional person.

When you start to have doubts about people then little things seem bigger than they are.

These trips should be your main focus. Who goes, how many kids, when are they decided and why are they late back - all questions you are fully entitled to ask. And I'd ask them in reverse order.

a high five is not a replacement for a hug. I'd go so far as to say that I'm pretty sure we'd get downgraded if a child approached a member of staff during an inspection, asked for a hug, and was offered a high five.

Thank you Glass, for ifentifying concerns so articulately.

I’m not on a witch hunt here and I’m doing plenty of ‘benefit of the doubt-ing’

Unless I haven’t already made it abundantly clear, I wouldn’t have even posted if this was a case of comforting a child who was upset.

Thanks for highlighting the possibility of the potential difference in ratios depending on qualifications, that’s helpful to know.

I think I’d rather that the expectation my DCs have while their moving through their school years is that teachers won’t be cuddling them regularly. Learning boundaries is actually part of their education, even from early years, and we entrust the childcare providers with that.

This girl did not need a big ole’ bear hug, even if she did approach him. She could have been validated by a smile and a high 5, and a “Hi (child name), how are you?” :)

Agree with exfury re the trips btw. It's the issue you could question most effectively to see how good their approach is.

If you are up here, then the ratio is 1:8 for a session of over 4 hours, 1:10 for less. The 2 members of staff rule is an on site rule. But here's what we expect for a trip

-full risk assessment should have been performed covering things like roads to be crossed, hazards, busy areas, access to bathrooms etc.
-evidence of signing in and out of both children and staff members - there should always be an accurate record of who is on site
-Whoever is off site should be carrying an emergency contact list for the children they have along with any essential medications (inhalers, for example)
-Parents should have signed consent to children being off site - this may be included as part of the contract rather than a separate form each time
-He should be carrying a first aid kit (portable one is fine)
-We use high vis jackets; it's not compulsory but generally preferred by the regulator
-the staff are also very visibly logo'd up. You see them coming!
-during summer I'd expect water/sunscreen etc if appropriate. Basically our staff carry rucksacks packed with everything they might need.
I've probably missed a few things too as I'm not feeling great

1. Would this bother you if it was a woman?
2. Unless you are 100% sure he is not adhering to ratios yabu. Yanbu regarding the timetable. It sounds more like he is unorganised than any funny business though.
3. A child won't starve because they miss one snack.

That reminds me; DD (7) was really upset when she moved in to P3 as her new teachers had a no hugging rule. P1 and P2 teachers were both cuddlers.

YABU my kids have all attended the same nursery/preschool and there is a male nursery nurse. He is fantastic with the kids and actually the kids all seem to gravitate towards him because he is funny and jolly.
There was a parent at the nursery that publicly stated how she thought it was wrong that he worked there, he could be a sexual predator blah blah, he was heartbroken as he had worked there for over 20 years.
He is no more likely to be a sexual predator than a woman. In-fact the huge child pornography case that happened in a Plymouth was a female perpetrator and the the passing on of inappropriate images was to other females and couples.
All nurseries have safe guarding policies in place, such as 2 staff in changing areas, always 2 staff present with a child alone etc.
I think you are being a bit neurotic TBH.
I dont

I would expect those with public sector Child Protection will appeciate what I’m talking about

🙄 so, anyone who disagrees with you just doesn’t know what they’re talking about...right.

Shock, horror, child gets a hug. Get a grip.

If you’re so worried about ratios, look them up. It’s not difficult.

For those asking whether I’d be concerned if he was female, I honestly do not know. I tend to think I would pick up on it. I have not seen any of the female after school staff doing picking up like he does.

I’ve seen the kids hug the women around the waist, in return the women would give a 1 arm cuddle/back pat.

Really haven’t seen any of the women lift the kids up like you would a pre-schooler.

There are different types of hug.

In a professional capacity, I don’t see what’s wrong with setting the kids’ expectations that they’re cared for, but that cuddles and rough-housing are not part of that.

The no contact rules in childcare setting that were prevelant for a while are generally phasing out. Those kinds of rules aren't helpful, they don't actually protect against anyone meaning harm and are not child led. Things now are gearing toward proper protection through appropriate settings and safeguards - two people at changing areas, staff mobile phones not in the room.

A hug in front of other staff, other children and parents is not a dangerous thing.

And it's clouding you into making a potential big issue into a secondary issue.

My friend runs a nursery. They’ve had a lad there for a year. He’s fabulous with the kids and pulls his weight with the crap jobs. He’s just turned 20, full of life, he goes home shattered because the kids love him and treat him like a climbing frame. He reckons the marathons he runs are less gruelling!

One set of potential parents were sniffy about it, they got shown the door before the ‘tour’ was even finished. The nursery takes no crap and I’m incredibly proud of them.

How old are the childrent he is taking out? School aged children? Year 1 and above or reception and below? These are 2 very different age group when it comes to legalities around childcare. The younger children are subject to the EYFS, the older ones aren't.