Are bare arms demeaning?

[RoseWhiteTips]

Former Canadian PM Kim Campbell sparks debate with claim women's bare arms on TV are 'demeaning'

Kim Campbell sparked a wide debatewith a tweet which said sleeveless outfits "undermine credibility and gravitas".
She linked to a blog by a man, Dr Nick Morgan, who wrote thatwomen they will look "less brilliant" if they wear sleeveless outfits.

In his blog on the Public Words website, Dr Morgan wrote: “Think about what this means when you put on that sleeveless dress, women, or that expensive, cool-looking casual t-shirt, men.

“Apparently, we humans are pretty simple creatures.If you show up in front of us with skin exposed, we’re going to think about your body.If you’re wearing lots of clothing, we’re going to think about your mind.”
(Evening Standard)

Is she being unreasonable to hold this opinion or does she gave a point?

I think she expressed herself badly but I agree with her. Women newsreaders wear almost cocktail outfits often whereas men are in very professional and quite boring suits. I hate seeing Naga Munchetty particularly in sleeveless outfits in February on the sofa next to men wearing normal clothes for the time of year.

It's not that the bare arms detract from the message - or that women have to cover up. It's the distinction between what the men wear and what the women wear and the requirement on women to be decorative.

The picture that Lost posted is exactly the issue.

Have you watched Suits? I always think that the outfits look completely unrealistic, and would be frankly inappropriate in the real world. It's a tv show, the female cast looks great, but it's not real.

People shouldn't forget that dress codes are in place for every employee. Outfits that a fit woman could get away with would look horrendous on a not-so-slim colleague, so you have to keep them as strict as possible. It's not fair, but you have to treat everybody the same.

The former PM isn't talking about "the office" she's stating that on television a formal dress code should be adopted.

I agree with the comments about how female presenters are dressed compared to their male counter parts.
I've worn similar dresses to the ones linked, with a long sleeve black top underneath to meetings etc. In the sane meetings there has never been a man of my level that hasn't been wearing long sleeves.

I agree about Suits, the Women may be equal in the job role but they are dressed as eye candy.

Holly, yes, you're quite right. I maintain that there's a gender element to this argument, but it is not always or only men who judge women's personal physical appearance.

but would you feel ashamed of your gender/sex for not wanting a 25 year old male teacher to teach your kids in shorts and a vest? Or a male nursery worker to turn up in a skirt and bra? Or your doctor- male - telling you you had terminal cancer dressed in gold skin tight jeans and a tee-shirt slashed to the navel??

I find these examples too silly to respond to. A tailored sleeveless dress isn't comparable to shorts and a vest, skirt and bra or gold skin tight jeans and a tee-shirt slashed to the navel (although of the three examples, I find the jeans in this one the least silly).

Could you concentrate on legal advice pertaining to your brutal divorce given by a male solicitor and hsi female paralegal dressed in low cut tops and showing bare exposed arms and legs.

Well, if the man was in shorts (why is he male and the woman his paralegal, as an aside?) then yes, I could concentrate, although I'd find the clothes not very appropriate. If the woman was in shorts then ditto; if she had on a smart dress with bare legs and/or arms then I'd find that office-appropriate.
Low-cut tops, again, depending on how low, I might find inappropriate. But I could concentrate, yes.

I'm not sure any of this sheds any particularly informative light.

Couldn't care less and professionalism is a behaviour not a look.

Couldn't care less and professionalism is a behaviour not a look.
but first impression matters, and being inappropriately dressed is being unprofessional.

The acceptable dress code varies depending on your industry and location obviously.

I think she has a point that SOME people may see you (especially if you are female) as less 'serious' if they can see your arms (could be legs etc too). But then some people will also see you as less serious if you are female/female with no make-up/not white middle class etc. That doesn't mean we should choose our clothing etc based on what SOME people might think.

In answer to a few posts, I think there is a separate issue about people in a formal role wearing formal attire- so yes if I go to see a consultant about a serious issue and they are wearing beach wear I might think this was not very professional/respectful. This is not the same as someone wearing a smart dress that happens to show a bit of arm.

but would you feel ashamed of your gender/sex for not wanting a 25 year old male teacher to teach your kids in shorts and a vest But if he was teaching PE that would be OK ditto a female teacher. It's all about context.
Women news readers and weather reporters- just wear some sleeves and shoes that you can walk in.

Couldn't care less and professionalism is a behaviour not a look. I've been having a similar argument on various social media platforms recently. Yes, it really is fine if you put up Friday Funnies about the irritation women evince when on their period - totes professional. Makes you look like a twat and, because I am in a closed group with you, it rubs off on me!

Apparently, twas just a jokey woke and I should loosen up! Said by a young man who sells his marketing skills for his living... online image of himself, T-shirt, can of beer and a bleery smile - cos he is" keepin' it real!" but without the punctuation!

I await his year end wail about how much work he has not got...

yy @Lostinshowbiz I agree

I wouldn't want to have a meeting with a male colleague sitting in his vest.

But a vest is underwear. It’s not remotely comparable to a tailored, high-necked sleeveless dress

I wore lots of this type of thing when I worked in an office environment (though usually without the sexy pose...); it felt completely professional to me.

This comes up often in various guises. Yes everyone should dress as they choose, but appearance, like it or not does affect people's opinion of you. Maybe some people wouldn't judge your professionalism based on showing your arms but little things like that add up to form our opinion of people and anyone who thinks they aren't affected is kidding themselves.

My BIL has long dredlocks and no job. Several people have suggested smartening himself up might help him find work, but no, "people should see what he offers not what he looks like".Which they should, but who's suffering because he won't conform?

I don't think sleeveless is an appropriate dress for work tbh, unless of course that's outdoor manual work or equivalent.
I only work pt in a call centre, so not seeing customers, we can wear what we like except for tops with slogans and sleeveless.
We'd be sent home, without pay or told to cover our arms.
This is min wage, not the dizzy heights some on here achieve.
So, I think if it's unacceptable at grass roots, it's pretty poor moving up the ladder.

I wouldn't wear a dress like this Cel982 without a top of some kind underneath.

Otherwise, where does it stop?

All of the doctors at my surgery/clinics wear short (or no) sleeves and no tie. Infection control. Strangely enough NO-ONE questions their professionalism.

Check out your pilot the next time you fly. Most, but not all wear short sleeves because they're in a controlled atmosphere. I have never doubted their professionalism based on the length of their sleeves, male or female.

Actually I agree with her. There have been times where I’ve noticed that a male TV presenter is dressed smartly, in a suit and tie while the female presenter has bare arms or a shortish skirt. Chances are, both have their clothes picked out for them.

The problem with requiring female presenters to have bare arms is that it means they either have to be relatively young OR in really good shape. There is no such requirement for the male presenter.

At work we had an etiquette that we should dress in a way that meant that a more conservative colleague wouldn’t be embarrassed by having to take us to a meeting a short notice. I’m not sure that bare arms would be okay in that situation.

I don’t think sleeveless tops are demeaning if the person wearing the outfit would normally choose to wear it, but if female newsreaders are being told/encouraged to show flesh for the viewers pleasure then yes, that is demeaning for them.

There still seems to be a requirement for women to be attractive as well as knowledgeable which is gradually being eroded but extremely knowledgeable and experienced scholars like Mary Beard, for example, still face criticism for their appearance in a way no one would ever level at a man. No one has ever criticized David Attenborough’s appearance but women are seen as fair game.

Where have you seen that SHORT sleeves are not professional?
Again, there's a limit on what is acceptable, sorry. This dress is not professional in most workplaces.

I have never understood why women want to go for the bare arms look in business meetings. Also I get very very cold. I have never been h appy with men in lovely warm suit with jacket and shirt on dates and women with goose pimples shivering like anything because there is some custom they have to be totally unsuitably clothed for our awful English weather.

However it is up to them what they wear.
I will be sticking to my work jacket and feeling as warm as toast... and by th e way it is not because there is anything wrong with my arm; they are pretty good arms.... I am usually the msot senior woman in the room so could get away with wearing within reason what I liked but I think it's sexist women have to shiver whilst men get lovely warm good sensible clothes.

Saska That address is figure hugging and would not be okay even with long sleeves

Professionalism includes look. I wouldn’t wear sleeveless at my workplace. The men are dressed very formally too. The mismatch is when the men are dressed formally and the women are less so. That leaves women looking less formal and in my workplace less professional.

Obviously where practicality requires short sleeves (surgery) then everybody is forced to do the same thing which actually helps women. Effectively it’s a uniform. It’s the mismatch here between women’s uniform and men’s that highlights the fact that women are having to be decorative where men don’t.

Sleeves or no sleeves isn't the issue. It's professional dress or not.

Many if my male colleagues only wear suits to parents' evenings. The rest of the time they wear shirt, tie and jumper sort of thing. They look smart. I couldn't care less if they wear long or short sleeves.

I wear blouses and 3/4 trousers. Whether you can see my upper arm or not when i take my blazer off isn't an issue.

What I don't like is the way one woman in my school wear almost cocktail attire. She looks great but I don't think it screams professional and I've heard students talking about how she's dressed for a night out