Are bare arms demeaning?

[RoseWhiteTips]

Former Canadian PM Kim Campbell sparks debate with claim women's bare arms on TV are 'demeaning'

Kim Campbell sparked a wide debatewith a tweet which said sleeveless outfits "undermine credibility and gravitas".
She linked to a blog by a man, Dr Nick Morgan, who wrote thatwomen they will look "less brilliant" if they wear sleeveless outfits.

In his blog on the Public Words website, Dr Morgan wrote: “Think about what this means when you put on that sleeveless dress, women, or that expensive, cool-looking casual t-shirt, men.

“Apparently, we humans are pretty simple creatures.If you show up in front of us with skin exposed, we’re going to think about your body.If you’re wearing lots of clothing, we’re going to think about your mind.”
(Evening Standard)

Is she being unreasonable to hold this opinion or does she gave a point?

I have a job where important high level meetings are attended by men, and women, in t shirts.

Then you have a casual workplace. Not everyone does.

I think it's a reasonable point poorly made. I have a real issue with the fact that on some news programmes, the male presenter is dressed like a new reader would be expected to look but the female presenter is dressed for a nightclub.

Sky Sports News is particularly bad for this.

There is nothing wrong with bare arms in and of themselves, the issue is when the female presenter is expected to dress to be attractive but the male presenter is expected to dress to be "serious". No problem either if both are dressed to impress or both are dressed more informally but when there is a disparity between them it becomes an issue. And let's be honest, the disparity always goes the same way, doesn't it.

I'm old enough to have a standard of professional dress for men and women in my head that doesn't include bare arms - for either of them. It seems to casual to me - nothing to do with being demeaning.

Looking at women on tv (and the wonderful Michelle Obama) I realise that standard is certainly changing/changed for women. I still would not feel properly dressed for a professional meeting in a sleeveless dress and no jacket.

Short sleeved dress shirts for men are awful things.

If bare arms are inappropriate at work, then can someone please link any office-standard dresses that have full sleeves because I never find them and personally would love to be warmer rather than relying on the dress / cardigan / smart jacket combo all the damn time.

Exactly - but if there was an appropriate dress code for all the gender issue becomes a lesser one. If a females and males have to wear trousers and short/long sleeved tops then there is less of a problem.

I suspect there would be a "_paedophile panic"

The news programmes are absolutely fucking diabolical. The financial networks are possibly the worst. Some of the women look like they'd be better suited to work behind a bar.

An example:

OneFlew SIL works in legal and gets all her dresses from John Lewis or LK Bennett. They're long sleeves a-go-go.

OfaFrench I wasn't unprofessional! I am just being honest about what went through my mind. As I said, it didn't stop me from listening to what she said.

Lostin's image shows exactly what the original comment by Kim Campbell was referencing, and in this case, I agree with her.

Then you have a casual workplace. Not everyone does.

No, i don’t actually. There is very strict dress code and it’s very much a “rules and regulations” kind of place.

But occasionally people need to dress informally for their current activity, or they are in a department where dress code is casual. They don’t have to go and put on a suit to attend a meeting though, and still stay on topic/get the job done, it doesn’t all go pear shaped because someone has their arms out. Professional behaviour, and all that. People are treated as professionals, not thought less of if they are in a t-shirt.

I thought Michelle Obama, both as a senior lawyer and First Lady, looked nothing but professional and smart in her sleeveless fitted dresses.

Incidentally, any Australians around? I understood that shorts for men were more acceptable in business situations there than here.

This reminds me of when Michelle Obama dared to bare her arms a few years ago and certain sectors of the American community said it was "inappropriate" for the FLOTUS to do so.

No one has brought this up yet so I'm going to add it. It's something I heard a while back. My thought was hmm, yeah, nah.

Exposed shoulder is reminiscent of the curve of the breast.

Exposed underarm is reminiscent of, well, the lady area.

I present The lovely Alice Roberts.

Which is great, but surely you've noticed that in the photograph you have chosen she appears to be in a garden/field and not in the workplace setting most are discussing?

Agree that the pic of Alice Roberts looks as if she is on holiday,
I could post pics of Senior politicians in shorts or a senior barrister of my acquaintance in lycra cycling leggings - complete with bulge - however we wouldn't take apolitician seriously dressed like that at a summit and you wouldn't want the barrister on your side in court wearing his leggings and no top.!

Lost, I agree with that image and i would never wear that dress to work.

However I have several like the black one posted in a variety of colours, black. Charcoal. Navy etc and I've worked there twenty years. I'm also relatively senior. I know the dress code and what's right and women being expected to cover their arms is not something we would expect. It's so Victorian.

Someone actually wrote bare exposed arms like it was something scandalous. They are arms ffs.

please link any office-standard dresses that have full sleeves

www.hobbs.co.uk/business-suits/suit-dresses
cheaper versions available in most high street shops!

I was thinking that TooManyPaws. Often people working in hot countries can look very smart, in well-designed, short-sleeved linen and cotton. So anyone not dressed in Cold Country attire is by definition unprofessional?

If you read down in the article (well the one I read) a female newreader said a new image consultant had been brought in and they had been told to change from wearing jackets to dresses like Michelle Obama. It was to look more modern.

Like other posters I think that dress is fine, but needs a jacket for more formal situations- Reading then news is one of them. Unless the Male news reader is jacket less too.

I wear sleeveless tops in the office in the summer. I don't own a suit and only bought a jacket for DM's funeral last year and I don't know if I can wear it again. I'm still smart and can do my job so I don't see a problem.

I think DH owns one long sleeved shirt, again bought for the funeral. He doesn't work in an office though, but when we go out he looks fine in his short sleeved shirts.

I think it is unprofessional looking tbh.

There's a difference between short sleeves and sleeveless. I can't think of any workplace setting other than a gym or farm where men could get away with sleeveless.

It does seem unfair, assuming men get just as sweaty and uncomfortable in summer as we do. A short sleeved blouse is almost always fine. Sleeveless, less so.

Pretty certain a TV newsreader (or their wardrobe department) could stretch to this:

www.lkbennett.com/product/CDCASEVISCOSEMIXRedTomato~Case-Red-Dress-Tomato

Of course it isn't demeaning. if you are confident enough to have bare arms out (I may not be) then go for it. What is demeaning is the actual suggestion that female arms can even be demeaning!!! In some situations, it may look a bit casual as would shorts but demeaning FFS.

Ah ok, I read the bare exposed arms to mean ANY arm showing hence my surprise whereas both LK Bennett and the Hobbs dresses mostly have quarter / half / three quarter sleeves and I don't see any of those as inappropriate so presume I misread.

I don't wear sleeveless dresses anyway as personal preference but those brands have sleeveless dresses that look professional to my eye and I certainly wouldn't look askance at anyone wearing them in our office.