Are bare arms demeaning?

[RoseWhiteTips]

Former Canadian PM Kim Campbell sparks debate with claim women's bare arms on TV are 'demeaning'

Kim Campbell sparked a wide debatewith a tweet which said sleeveless outfits "undermine credibility and gravitas".
She linked to a blog by a man, Dr Nick Morgan, who wrote thatwomen they will look "less brilliant" if they wear sleeveless outfits.

In his blog on the Public Words website, Dr Morgan wrote: “Think about what this means when you put on that sleeveless dress, women, or that expensive, cool-looking casual t-shirt, men.

“Apparently, we humans are pretty simple creatures.If you show up in front of us with skin exposed, we’re going to think about your body.If you’re wearing lots of clothing, we’re going to think about your mind.”
(Evening Standard)

Is she being unreasonable to hold this opinion or does she gave a point?

Demeaning is an odd word to use, but no sleeves as opposed to short sleeves does look less professional, mainly because most sleeveless clothing isn't what you would call work wear (the above dress being an obvious exception).

I don't care about men in short sleeved shirts either, it looks smart and is sensible in whatever summer heat we get!

Oddly I am not sure I can get my head around men in shorts at work. Maybe I am an Aul StickintheMud

I wouldn't want to have a meeting with a male colleague sitting in his vest.

Not the same at all as a tailored sleeveless dress.

I know this is only telly, but bear with me –in The Good Wife I'm sure Alicia used to wear sleeveless dresses sometimes, and American officewear 'rules' are more conservative than in the UK, generally, aren't they? So if it was deemed smart enough for that environment, surely it's smart enough in the UK?

I don't like getting my arms out but think women look fine in sleeveless dresses. Short sleeved shirts on men are very common though. Rolled up sleeves are much more dignified.

I know this is only telly, but bear with me –in The Good Wife I'm sure Alicia used to wear sleeveless dresses sometimes, and American officewear 'rules' are more conservative than in the UK, generally, aren't they? So if it was deemed smart enough for that environment, surely it's smart enough in the UK?

It's fine for women to bare their arms in all but the most conservative work environments in the US.

I'd definitely take a cardigan or jacket to cover up if I were to join a meeting, though.

Pffffff, I have great arms and when I stand up and present my science to an audience I hope that they can appreciate my mind and then that I also have time to do exercise ie have a good work/life balance.

If they're oggling my body then I'm not making my science interesting enough for them OR they're just shallow twits.

Some of those sleeveless dresses look distinctly formal so I'm a bit about the 'unprofessional' comment - particularly when you can't even find dresses with long sleeves in the shops.

Personally I prefer to cover my arms but that's because it's winter and I'm freezing without a cardi or jacket. Other than that, I could understand excessive cleavage or skirts you can't bend down in being inappropriate, but arms???? It'll be ankles and hair next.

I'm nipping in to work for a couple of hours in a dress very similar to the one posted.
I wonder if anyone cares? In fact I don't, I'll wear what I like within guidelines.

I suppose it depends where you work doesnt it? I certainly wouldnt wear that dress eg for a job interview, but I'd wear it to a cocktail party.

Peopel feign moral outrage over 'being alowed to wear what htey want' and 'are we in the 1950's' - you know there are certain codes of dress, etiquette , and so forth - if you want to turn up for a job interview wearing a grass skirt and bone through your nose, daubbed in all manner of ink, of course you are free to do so, just don't expect to get a job at the end of it. Cue 200 posters saying their husband is smothered in tats and is an area manager for a multi national. I'm sure he is, but Kwik Fit is not comparable to Coutts is it?

Ps - someone stole my keyboad

Well the point was aimed at men too, so good in that sense.

I kind of agree. I do think that short sleeved shirts look a bit off and that GENERALLY, on dresses having a sleeve of some sort looks more professional. Sleeveless has to work very hard and be very boring not to immediately slide into cocktail dress territory. Sleeves are by definition more worky. And I agree with Stoat above.

TheOrig, yes, exactly!

The quote If you show up in front of us with skin exposed, we’re going to think about your body is just fucking laughable. Well, it would be if it weren't so depressing.

I know plenty of men, not least my DP, who would feel ashamed of his gender – and pretty insulted – at the suggestion that they would sit and think about someone's body in a meeting rather than the work.

But no arms are not demeaning. Nor are they 'less brilliant'

The last place I worked in was social care and all staff wore t shirts if they wished. In the summer, some of the men wore long shorts (below the knee). There was no a/c so in the summer, we were all dying in the heat. Often the women would wear a tank t shirt with no sleeves. There was never any formal dress code but if there was a meeting with the high ups, we automatically smartened up. All of us.
HOWEVER
I was in Relate as a client. My husband and I were having couples counselling. The first appointment, our counsellor turned up in a top exposing her chest from the edge of her shoulders, quite a ways down her cleavage then to the other shoulder (think an off the shoulder number, but not quite), a skirt at knee length and bare legs. That for me was utterly inapporopriate.

I agree. If the doctor treating me for depression - of either sex - was wearing shorts and a cut-away teeshirt I would feel uncomfotable.

If a prospective boyfriend turned up for a date wearing a dressing gown and speedos I would not think "Oh he can wear what he wants it is his mind that matters" I would think him a creep.

Clothes reflect a social situation and are a simple way of making it easier for everyone to navigate.

When I visit a client in their home I wear dark trousers, a shirt or high necked blouse and a dark jacket. It is simple, professional, says "I am here to do a job", there are no "respect" or "mixed signals" issues.

Can we not just go with that rather than making it an "issue"

I know plenty of men, not least my DP, who would feel ashamed of his gender – and pretty insulted – at the suggestion that they would sit and think about someone's body in a meeting rather than the work.

Hang on michael - a woman up the thread has just said this:

StoatofDisarray Wed 14-Feb-18 12:21:31

I just came out of a meeting, and found myself idly looking at the woman opposite me who had a sleeveless dress on. I was wondering whether she waxed or shaved under her arms, mentally comparing the tone of her arms to mine, and noticed a slight difference in colour between the skin of her armpit and the rest of her arms. I don't fancy her, and I was interested in what she was saying, but these things still went through my head

I don't get political the ins and outs but it does feel wrong to me to wear sleeveless clothes in business setting. Just as I wouldn't expect a male colleague to wear a sleeveless top for work.

bit of sleeve for work, no cleavage of any sort (not pretty) and hemline and neckline a reasonable distance apart. Applies for everyone.

not body shaming, not prudery, just time and place.

and stand up straight, not like the model in the black dress. Although with those fugly heels on she probably has no choice.

I present The lovely Alice Roberts. I'm not sure she could be "less brilliant" if she actively tried. I'd post her qualifications and achievements but there are too many...

MichaelBendfaster - but would you feel ashamed of your gender/sex for not wanting a 25 year old male teacher to teach your kids in shorts and a vest? Or a male nursery worker to turn up in a skirt and bra? Or your doctor- male - telling you you had terminal cancer dressed in gold skin tight jeans and a tee-shirt slashed to the navel??

Could you concentrate on legal advice pertaining to your brutal divorce given by a male solicitor and hsi female paralegal dressed in low cut tops and showing bare exposed arms and legs.

It isn't about men being able to restrain themselves FFS

I have a job where important high level meetings are attended by men, and women, in t shirts.

They’re arms ffs. Not getting your dick out and flopping it on the table. Arms. Anyone who is distracted by arms shouldn’t be at meetings.

I actually can’t stand long sleeve tops. I can’t bear the feeling around my wrists. And in my job it is more practical to wear short sleeves. I have been to work in vest tops and beach dresses.

Our work environment is productive and serious. My, or anyone else revealing their arms has not led to any shagging over the photocopier because people cannot restrain themselves.

I often wear tailored sleeveless dresses, and also sleeveless shell tops with trousers in summer for work, I work in a large corporation which is very formal. I don't think it's demeaning and find the notion a bit daft. Should we cover our ankles too?

Sure there is a difference with vest tops and a round neck sleeveless shell top or dress, and I wouldn't wear a vest top or spaghetti straps, it's too bare, but I see nothing wrong with sleeveless.

When other women dress as I do I never sit comparing her arms to mine or thinking about her armpits, I find that a little odd to be honest. Just as if someone is wearing a v neck top I don't think about their breasts and if they are wearing a skirt I don't think about their legs.

Depends on what the dress code is for the position. If it's suits, shirt and tie for men, then women should wear the equivalent, which does include sleeves (probably a jacket over a blouse or dress).
Short sleeve shirts are more casual, for both sexes.
What people wear in their private life is their own business. I wear vest tops in hot weather, and don't feel demeaned in the slightest.

StoatofDisarray your personal issue and lack of professionalism should have no impact on the way women dress.

Or a male nursery worker to turn up in a skirt and bra

You could not object- you need to respect their gender identity.

Coloursthatwermyjoy. I think you've proved the point there. We know Alice Roberts is brilliant but she looks like she's on holiday there, not working in a respect profession.