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What's with all these transgender threads?!

630 replies

pancakequeenisheretosaveyou · 14/02/2018 05:43

No less than 7 on my active threads?? Is it just me who in real life hasn't encountered any transgender people?? And coming from the professional background that I'm in, I see a pretty varied side of life Confused

Am I missing out on something here??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
MasterWu · 14/02/2018 15:12

It was posted by Joy at 1115

AppleFaceBeth · 14/02/2018 15:23

Yet you stated you agreed with it. So do you?

DrawingLife · 14/02/2018 15:24

MasterWU it's not evidence to the contrary. It's evidence how far we've come. Nobody is pretending we (super privileged) Western women haven't made incredible progress. And yet so much to do.

Boy, I hope you don't work with prisoners in a professional capacity.

DarthNigel · 14/02/2018 15:26

I wonder this too op. I've met a few trans people just because I used to work for a Charity and we often did sort of charity showcases where there were stalls- and a local trans group were often on the stall next to us. I didn't think anything of it really.Outside of that I've never knowingly met a trans person, and wouldn't care if I had. And yet there are so many threads on here talking about the issue using complex terminology and with people getting hugely irate. I just can't see it as a massive issue when compared with the other issues facing women in Particular and society as a whole.

MasterWu · 14/02/2018 15:28

Yet you stated you agreed with it. So do you?

Yep

AppleFaceBeth · 14/02/2018 15:34

Ok so you disagree with Poffley's points then? Care to elaborate?

ThePinkPanter · 14/02/2018 15:38

Could you also answer mine when you're still here?

Jaynesworld · 14/02/2018 15:43

Darthnigel most would not bat an eyelid either about a trans person in the next changing room, toilet cubicle etc. The majority of trans people just want to get on with their lives free from discrimmination etc and the majority of feminists and women do too.
The issue is free access to any pervert to womens spaces. The amount of prisoners who have commited crimes against women and children, who now want to transition so they can access them is astounding.

Dont forget that travis "person" and his friend who dressed up as sexual 15 year old girls for halloween, his friend who wrote that the girls who were subject to sexual assault were not completley innocent and were partly to blame for their assault. Want access to female changing spaces. They have no desire to transition and live life peacefully, they get off on the drama and possibly the act of dressing up as women.

Those mentioned above will have free access to vunerable women/children.

Not to mention muslim women who CANNOT use unisex facilities.

Who is this new proposed law going to protect? Because its not women, its not children, its not trans people, its not men.

It will however protect the perverts.

AprilW · 14/02/2018 15:48

Lovesagin, that's been my experience, too. Apart from the self-ID and transing children, there's also a huge lag of understanding about the current state of mainstream trans ideology. Most liberal people are still back in the older, tolerant, 'we need to respect people's lifestyle choices' and 'gender dysmorphia is very traumatic and those who suffer it deserve support, respect and protection' mode. They assume people labelled 'transphobic' must hate trans people and wish them harm, which is why the word has such power. Underneath, there's a bedrock of fact, even if it's unspoken: people know that trans women are born male, and have transitioned to living as women.

I see this everywhere, even on threads where people bemoan how bored they are of the trans discussions and how horrible MNers are.

These people need to know that they are transphobic, under the current terms of discussion. Being trans is neither a lifestyle choice nor a mental illness. Trans women are women. They were born women. To draw, even indirectly, any attention to the fact that they are physically male is an act of abuse akin to physical harm, and to show that you are obsessed with genitals and old-fashioned 'folk biology'. To question any aspect of this ideology is to prove yourself a bigot. If you question the increasingly-wide use of the term TERF, and the accompanying misogyny and threats of violence, then you're probably a TERF.

The bad news is that people are reluctant to risk an accusation of bigotry, and so don't tend to ask questions if the situation doesn't seem conducive to that - and nearly all trans discussions I see outside MN actively dissuade, or forbid, difficult questions. So there's a haze of embarrassed, hesitant confusion over the issue. (And I'm sure a not-insignificant number of people see 'incorrectly assigned male at birth' and assume this relates to an intersex condition.)

But the good news is that I've never seen anyone respond to genuine, comprehensive examples of current trans ideology without eventually saying... what the actual fuck?

Transactivism seems to be one of those issues where the more you're directly exposed to it, the more reservations you develop, until something really pushes you over the edge. So it's great that it's receiving widespread coverage, but it's crucial that it's counterbalanced with a right to reply and express these reservations. Otherwise, it becomes one of those topics where everyone secretly, quietly knows it's bullshit but nobody feels able to say anything, even while legislative changes are codifying it into law.

FrancinePefko · 14/02/2018 15:50

Hand on heart, I've never seen some write 'penis owner

Here you go
Yesterday 03:35 PositivelyPERF

Actually I used the expression [PERF] in the first instance after being called TERF, having listened to a wonderful feminist speaker use it because she was having TERF screamed at her by a bunch of bullying men. I stand by it, as I’m proud to a radical feminist and refuse to have people make me feel ashamed about that. I will continue to centre women in feminism and that includes fighting for the rights of women to keep penis owners (men) out of female spaces

This was jusy yesterday on
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3164262-Not-quite-a-TAAT-I-hope-but-a-follow-on-from-the-Are-You-a-Feminist-thread?pg=18&order=

DrawingLife · 14/02/2018 16:03

And have you encountered anything on this thread that wasn't argued reasonably and respectfully (apart from the persistent person trying to derail it), Francine?

Maybe you could explain how women and girls can be protected, or how this orthodoxy will not lead to the erosion of women's rights? It's an honest question, because I struggle to find any positive vision or answers.

I've tried to engage TRA on social media who tell me "terfy feminists" should join with TRA to achieve great things for women's rights together. But what things?

I always use respectful language and show I'm open for their point of view (which I am!), so I haven't myself encountered abuse. But also, not a single one has answered me beyond "my concerns aren't based in reality". REALITY. From people who are asking me to ignore biological facts on another person's say-so!

FrancinePefko · 14/02/2018 16:03

How would you like to be reduced to "Vagina-Owner"?

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 14/02/2018 16:06

Lololol at the hand wringing round ‘penis owners (men)’ when women have been handed TERF and cis and now people use them unironically.

You see the difference? Men being allowed to literally make up words for women because they want the words we have (women and feminism if you’re unclear) and the whole world accepts it and tells those of us who object to STFU - but use ‘penis owner’ about a person who has a penis and that’s meeeeeeeaaaaaan!

It. Is. Farcical. If it wasn’t true Hmm

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 14/02/2018 16:08

And I AM reduced to ‘vagina owner’ by many people, but they don’t qualify that with the (women) they tell me to STFU and accept my place as a cis-female with a front hole because apaz trans women are women and a surgically created neo-vagina is now a vagina.

DarthNigel · 14/02/2018 16:10

Jaynesworld-genuine question-how many perverts are we talking though? I am possibly naive but what proportion of the population are perverts that would go to those lengths to access women's changing rooms?

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 14/02/2018 16:12

Try the ‘This Never Happens’ Facebook page @DarthNigel.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 14/02/2018 16:13

I feel really sad seeing this thread.

I'm sure it can feel infuriating at times how many trans threads there are.

But if you haven't read many of them in detail and you don't believe there are any issues with the whole trans thing then you are sleepwalking into something which at worst is going to have a massively negative impact on women's lives.

There are some amazing women posting on mumsnet. I've seen them repeatedly say they want trans people to be safe and to live how they want to live. No-one hates trans people or wants to make their lives harder.

The issue is with predatory men who are trying to exploit the whole situation. I would share a bathroom with the transwomen I've met because instinctively I've been able to tell they're nice people who mean me no harm. I don't want self-id though and to have no choice over seriously nasty men pretending to be women so as to access safe spaces and vulnerable women.

This whole debate really isn't even about the tiny number of individuals who have gender dysphoria.

If you don't want to read the threads just don't complain when self-id comes in and you find yourself at risk in some way.

Me? I want to fight. I want vulnerable women to be safe. I'd actually also like the really vocal, aggressive TRA's to shut up because they'll be doing more damage to the trans community than anyone. I want trans people to be safe.

And debate is always welcome. It's TRA's who are calling for no debate

Geronimoleapinglizards · 14/02/2018 16:16

I am possibly naive but what proportion of the population are perverts that would go to those lengths to access women's changing rooms?

Darth, the thing is people don't need to go to any particular length. You're imagining men having a sex change or presenting as female. There has been a real push to say that a man need make no changes at all, and still be viewed as female.

So any predatory man would be able to call themselves a woman and no one would have any way of disagreeing.

That's what some people don't understand about self-id. The debate has shifted. To be trans, you don't need to make any changes whatsover and a penis can be a female sex organ.

theaveragewife · 14/02/2018 16:16

neo-vagina sounds glam, unlike the reality which is a gaping wound that needs to be dilated on a daily basis.

titchy · 14/02/2018 16:17

How would you like to be reduced to "Vagina-Owner"?

I AM a vagina-owner and that has defined my entire life, whether I like it or not.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 14/02/2018 16:19

I am possibly naive but what proportion of the population are perverts that would go to those lengths to access women's changing rooms?

What lengths? Just saying ' I am a woman' is all they have to do. questioning this is immediately transphobic and bigoted.

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 14/02/2018 16:19

@theaveragewife it does a bit, doesn’t it?

I’m not a fan actually but I’ll use the medically approved word grudgingly. Grudgingly because it’s not a ‘sort of’ birth canal is it?

FrancinePefko · 14/02/2018 16:21

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira

Lololol at the hand wringing round ‘penis owners (men)’

Use ‘penis owner’ about a person who has a penis and that’s meeeeeeeaaaaaan!

Not hand-wringing at all or saying it's meeeeaaaan. More of a concern that militant feminists have jumped head first into a bear trap laid for you by militant transactivists and (I am guessing) quite a few misogynistic men. By calling yourselves PERFs (rather than TERFs), you've now just given them the opportunity to call you Penisphobic, or Phallophobic or something equally puerile.

It's just playground name calling and it's silly ...Meanwhile there is war in Syria, the Rohingya refugee crisis continues, we have to find a way through Brexit, the oceans are being poisoned with plastics....

titchy · 14/02/2018 16:23

what proportion of the population are perverts that would go to those lengths to access women's changing rooms?

Apart from the fact that there will no longer be any lengths required, have a think about the things predators do now to access women and children. Actively befriending single women to access their children, online grooming for years very often, spending years training to do something which then allows access to the vulnerable. Many predatory men aren't opportunists - they plan their attacks - Barry Parnell, John watboys. So yes, stating 'I am a women Topshop manager and I will use the women's changing rooms where those teenage girls have just gone' isn't exactly a figment of an overactive imagination.

Jaynesworld · 14/02/2018 16:24

According to the government website on sexual assault statistics from the age of 16 -59 last year there were 646000 KNOWN sexual assaults (not everyone reports) 2.0% of the population. 1.7% of the population experienced unwanted touching and indecent exposure.

A recent study (fairplay for women) reported that 41% of trans prisoners are sex offenders.

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