What's with all these transgender threads?!

[pancakequeenisheretosaveyou]

No less than 7 on my active threads?? Is it just me who in real life hasn't encountered any transgender people?? And coming from the professional background that I'm in, I see a pretty varied side of life

Am I missing out on something here??

So you can understand why transwomen might feel unsafe around males in the men's toilets, but you can't understand why women might feel unsafe around males in the the ladies toilets?

I do understand. As I said, I have my concerns too. If it was a six foot tall burly bloke with a beard who leers at people, I'd want them out. If it was say, my friend Jane (not her real name) who is obviously masculine as she has only just started hormones but is wearing make up, body pads and trying her best to fit in, I'd never in a million years boot her out to the mens where she'd face stares and potential violence.

These things are difficult when you actually know people in real life. They're my friends and I want them to be happy.

I differentiate between a transwoman and a woman. Both should have their own rights and spaces in my mind.

No-one disagreed with you? I'm confused - you're saying the trans people you know have struggled with their gender identity and deserve respect and understanding and their own safe space yes?

That's what the feminists on MN believe too? Why don't you see that?

It's not a question I can't answer, I think I have answered it to the best of my understanding!

All I said was I was happy to call anyone by any pronoun they wanted!

Are people getting me mixed up with another poster?! I have never said I know any trans people?

Radio I do understand what you are saying I think.

The thing is Danielle Muscato isn't interested is being a 'transwoman' or having third spaces. On International Women's day he told said that anyone who didn't believe he was a woman can suck his 'lady dick'. He was in a women's refuge, seemingly with no regard for the women in there who might find his presence uncomfortable.

I'm sorry, but I don't really care what Danielle tells me they are, I have no respect for that. He is a man.

I never said woman and I've said I have differentiate between a woman and a transwoman.

Let me ask it another way. What has Dave transitioned from and to? From these photos. I don't see any transition at all. This is how he presents under both his names.

The reason there are so many threads is because it’s a big issue in society at the moment. All news outlets (online, paper, tv) have been covering this in some form recently. For example, in the Guardian on Saturday there were two large articles about Transgenderism. Anyone who hasn’t noticed this must be living under a rock. There is discussion in Parliament about changing the law on self-ID which is a pretty fundamental change to society and will have wide implications. Whether you agree with self ID or not, it is current affairs and relevant to women so of course MN is discussing it! . If it wasn’t being discussed that would be weird.

Did you complain last year ‘what’s with all the Brexit threads’?!

It's so much easier to shout "Transphobe!" and "Bigot!" than it is to actually take a moment to actually look at what is being said and by who and, crucially, why.

I feel sad that people just write off reasoned, informed and well thought out writing without actually reading it, and blatantly ignore the real point.

If you are going to sling accusations around, at least make sure they are accurate and relevant. Transphobe and bigot are not.

I hasten to add that the pearl clutchers shouting 'think of the children?!' over and over, are not affected by trans issues or encounter trans people in their daily lives.

Are you not concerned that children (young children up to and including teens) are being encouraged to take puberty blockers with no counselling or guidance and everyone is just supposed to stand around and cheer?

If all of the checks and measures were in place then at least there would be some sort of safety net, but children are being transitioned at the will of the parents.

Where is the consent?
Where is the Gillick competence?
Where is the understanding that boys on puberty blockers will not be able to go through a transitioning operation?
Where is the understanding that a girl that binds her breasts/has a mastectomy causes herself harm should she decide that she isn't a trans male?

Where is the discussion? Where is the debate?

We can't have any because it transphobic.

Thank you Thisuser. I wasn't aware of the history of Danielle Muscato. Genuinely thought it was a random picture with two names. I will read up now.

If it was a six foot tall burly bloke with a beard who leers at people, I'd want them out. If it was say, my friend Jane (not her real name) who is obviously masculine as she has only just started hormones but is wearing make up, body pads and trying her best to fit in, I'd never in a million years boot her out to the mens where she'd face stares and potential violence.

But under self ID you wouldn't be able to kick the six foot burly bloke with a beard out if he said he was a woman, that's the whole point! Further, under a culture of self Id it's entirely possible that you wouldn't even be able to question it in the first place, because you wouldn't want to offend.

Transwomen have been sharing women's toilets for years.

Or this.

I differentiate between a transwoman and a woman. Both should have their own rights and spaces in my mind.

I totally agree with you Radio

Unfortunately the activists don’t want their own spaces - this is a clip from a page organising a demo outside a prison where a trans woman killed herself after being jailed for killing a dad of two. That in itself is a horrific story, but they are also protesting against the possibility of non-binary facilities proposed in Scotland.

I think it's as well to assume that half of what you read on the Internet is made up or spun in some way.

So, OP, I'll just go on what I see in real life: which is increasing numbers of our real-life friends' teenage girls declaring themselves to be transgender, using breastbinders and looking bloody miserable.

Are you OK with me being a bit concerned about why?

I'm sure there are pockets of the country where this isn't something sweeping through the schools, but that in itself should raise some questions.

TellsEveryone. Okay. I'm obviously not explaining myself very well but here goes.

I am still of the opinion that a transition does not necessarily have to be physical. So if I wanted to live as a man, with a man's name, but still looked like a woman, I would still be a transgender man. Doesn't mean I should be awarded the same rights and spaces as a man.

Same applies other way round. A man can say he is a transwoman but not physically transition to look more feminine. In my eyes he would be a transgendered woman (although to expect there to be quite a bit of confusion), but not awarded the same rights as a woman. I don't even think that a transitioned, feminine looking transwoman should be afforded the same rights and spaces as women. Third spaces sound about right.

Has anyone seen any campaigns for these third spaces?

The reason trans threads are frequent on MN at the moment is because there is a change of legislation being prepared to allow self identification of gender with all the associated rights and protections, without ANY reasonable public debate about what the unintended consequences may be.
Please don't dismiss this as transphobic out of hand. Many, like me, are pro trans rights and inclusion as far as possible, as far as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

Reposting what I wrote on the jail competition thread:

We're not obsessed, we're concerned that huge changes to our protections are being established on the basis of a new orthodoxy that has never been properly debated. We're just expected to accept it without ANY acknowledgement of different views or questioning of the consequences for women and girls.

I have no problem with ppl identifying as different genders. I have a problem when their rights and feelings are expected to trump mine and make a mockery of the reason protections for women were established in the first place.
This should not simply be the new status quo. It needs a reasoned, rational, respectful debate with compromises.

This isn't a case where no one is being harmed by giving additional rights to a group of ppl. If this is done the wrong way I tell you what will happen ten, twenty years down the line:
there will be NO protections or women's rights, no matter how much discrimination and inequality biological women still suffer. The right wing meninists LOVE trans activism and the way women are letting themselves be co opted.

If a female body and reproductive capacity is not inexorably linked to the oppression, discrimination and inequalities that have existed for centuries (as the "inclusive" feminists will have us believe), if the mere biological experience of being a xx woman has no meaning, then why should we need to have special protections? If people with no physical experience of being women can become officers for women's rights, why not men? If male bodies are allowed in female spaces, why not all men? Isn't it unfair to exclude them? After all, they're not all violent abusers, are they? Why are we differentiating at all? Aren't we all the same? A bit gender fluid, a bit of this and that?

Oh, and do we for one minute think that male privilege will ever be extended to trans men??

The fucking reason women have gained hard fought for protections is inseparable from our biology. To pretend otherwise risks eroding women's rights permanently.

Radio this is the general perspective of a lot of supposed TERFs.... I'm happy to use the pronouns requested and will view them as transgender. But they shouldn't automatically be allowed in women's only spaces. That's why I get labelled Trans Exclusionary.

Interestingly I read an article about prisons last night.

It said that trans women actually faced more violence when housed in a women's prison than a man's.

So your genuine sweet transsexual person would be at more risk of violence when housed with women.

And anyone who was pretending to identify as a woman to get access to a women's prison should not be in there anyway.

So third spaces make sense to me.

It is not possible to change your biological sex and we should not be telling children that it is possible.

But under self ID you wouldn't be able to kick the six foot burly bloke with a beard out if he said he was a woman,that's the whole point!Further, under a culture of self Id it's entirely possible that you wouldn't even be able to question it in the first place, because you wouldn't want to offend.

As I said, I'm not entirely comfortable with self id. But this instance is so extremely rare. There are a vanishingly rare number of transwomen who make no effort whatsoever in their transition. So I guess with the six foot tall bloke I'd just say 'whatever', pee, then leave. If they start making inappropriate remarks or try assault, that is of course illegal still, and a fuss can be made. I understand if your reaction would be different.

I guess where we're getting our wires crossed is that we're arguing over hypotheticals.we both seem to agree that Jane can use her preferred bathroom. I don't really agree with self id. What I was trying to say in the first place, is that transpeople deserve respect, they should be called by their preferred pronouns, and they should be able to use their preferred bathroom. Hypothetical burly blokes and still illegal predatory behaviour aside.

The thing is that I think transpeople, MN gender warriors, and the general public actually agree on a lot, what's missing is respect.

Pink. Thank you. That sounds exactly like my perspective. I didn't think it was that unusual a perspective, so I'm not sure how I said it so wrong for my thought process to be analysed.

It might be vanishingly rare at the moment Random but if self-ID comes in it will become far, far more widespread. Because it isn't the genuine transsexual people who pose a threat (who have been using women's spaces for years, with unspoken respect on both sides) but the people who transgenderism as a smokescreen for a more sinister sexual agenda.

They don’t want 3rd spaces. They don’t want unisex spaces. They want to identify as a woman sometimes (and a man when it suits them). What they want is to be allowed in female only spaces - because, sometimes, they FEEL like a woman! Andbecause they FEEL like a woman - sometimes - they think they have the right to invade female spaces. Not many females want a bloke with a cock in spaces specifically meant for females only.

I definately don’t want a bloke with a cock sharing a space, especially in a state of undress, with me or my teenage daughters. What’s so difficult about that??

I don't know any trans women, and I am not personally affected by the trans movement at all. HOWEVER....I am so pleased that Mumsnet threads are highlighting the HUGE DARK blip on the horizon, that is gaining momentum, and will obliterate real women's rights, over the next few years. And believe me, it's coming.... unless women stand up and fight. Only, I have no idea how to do this.

I am scared for my daughter. I am scared for my grandaughters (if I have any in the future).

I don't care if a man wants to dress like a woman, and change his name to a female name. As long as that's where it stops. By all means I will call you "she" and call you by your female name.

I DO care, if trans women proceed to affect the lives of real women, by pushing them out, and taking their place.

Lily Madigan, is a transgender woman elected as a Labour Party women's officer She has taken a job that has always been filled by women previously (hint -> women's officer)

Trans women are being allowed to compete in female sports. They are slowly, but surely, pushing out women, because women cannot compete with a trans woman, who is bigger/faster/stronger.

Trans woman boxer Hannah Mouncey, is almost killing all of her female opponents in the ring. Some women have been so badly injured by "Hannah", that they have had to retire.

Gary Walker is a 7ft tall basket ball player, who now goes by the name of Lindsay.

If you can't see how unfair this is on women, then you must be hard of thinking.

Women have fought for decades for women's rights. Men have always oppressed women. We now stand at a precipice. Men are removing women's rights, under the banner of Trans.

And us women seem powerless to stop it.

Real women need to WAKE UP

If you hold that view Radio (like myself) then to most TRAs you are transphobic and a TERF.