What's with all these transgender threads?!

[pancakequeenisheretosaveyou]

No less than 7 on my active threads?? Is it just me who in real life hasn't encountered any transgender people?? And coming from the professional background that I'm in, I see a pretty varied side of life

Am I missing out on something here??

I've posted this before and I'll post it again -

Go to twitter
Open the search facility
Type in #transgirl or #shemale
(NSFW! Do not do this if you are of sensitive disposition!)

Think about whether the people you see posting under those hashtags are actually truly really absolutely "women" and come back and let us know what you think.

If there's any problem with MN's discussion of trans issues, it's that it gives a false impression of how open the discussion is. Whenever I'm on here, I see transactivists' claims being debated, agendas being questioned, and ideology being challenged (especially ideology which is elsewhere presented as fact).

It's not like this everywhere else. I don't just mean within transactivist circles: please, join an intersectional feminist group, or the Labour party, or try to leave a comment on a Guardian article, and see how tightly controlled the discussion is, to the point that there can be no discussion at all. You need to understand that the condition of talking about trans issues in almost every other setting right now is that you must subscribe fully to the TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN mantra, treating that statement as factual, incontrovertible truth, and that any hint of a misgiving you express will be, by definition, transphobic.

Many of the trans-positive, tolerance-positive comments on this thread would be deemed transphobic. No: you can't say you support the rights of trans women, but believe they shouldn't be in women's sport. Trans women ARE women! You can't say that you approve of self-ID but understand that there should be a few commonsense exclusions, e.g. women's refuges. Trans women ARE women! You can't project fears about male violence and male fetishes onto trans women. Trans women are NOT men. They have NEVER been men. They were assigned male at birth, but despite their physical form and socialisation they ARE and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN women.

There is no discussion permitted, which should be the first sign that this is an ideology which should be challenged very rigorously. And thank fuck for Mumsnet allowing this. For all that transactivists try to position themselves alongside historic civil rights causes, the movement increasingly has more in common with something like McCarthyism: an oppressive ideology gains a disproportionate amount of influence and swiftly entrenches itself, fucking up people's rights and limiting people's ability to express any sort of dissent/concern without being pilloried (or sacked, suspended, blacklisted, harassed).

Apparently this is a woman.

AprilW yes. Fantastic post.

titchy name change dear.

Calling bigot, TERF and transphobe is a very effective way to shut down debate. No-one wants to be a nasty, ignorant bigot.
But we're now in a place where you are a bigot if you believe in biology.
You are a bigot if you refer to a raped baby's sex (as happened to Vonny Bravo on Twitter)
You are a bigot if you are concerned about women's sport, women's spaces like refuges, prisons etc.
That's not right.

I've seen a few posters here criticising feminists and calling them militant and obsessive. That's really unfair and uninformed. The fact that some women are brave enough to stand up for women's rights mean that the vast majority of MN posters, as part of the U.K. Female population, benefit from their obsessive and irritating ways.
Have a long hard critical think about why so many of us are concerned about this issue.

This list is taken from the first blog I found when googling "list of things feminism has achieved"
Have a look, take your time, and think about how many things on the list apply to you, your sisters, cousins, mothers, friends.
Are you now going to sit back and let a small, aggressive group of men erode those things that a small number of women have tirelessly fought for? And are you still going to call those women obsessive and militant? If yes, have a good hard look at yourself, because you are part of the problem.

You can vote
You can own property
You can legally enter into a contract
You can start your own business
You can get a job outside the home
You can choose a profession other than nun, nurse or teacher
You don’t have to quit working when you get married
You can’t be fired or denied a job just because you’re pregnant
You can choose whether to work or stay home
Any money you earn is yours to keep
You are no longer property of a man (either your father or your husband)
You can get a divorce
You can get an abortion
You can use birth control
You can say yes to sex
You can say no to sex
You can have sex without being married
You can choose who to love (even if that is another woman)
You can choose who to marry (even if that is another woman, in some states)
You can choose whether or not to get married
You can go to college
You can enter nontraditional fields of study or career
You can receive scholarships
You can become a lawyer
You can become a doctor
You can become a head of state
You can become the head of a company
You can serve in the military
You can go into a bar
You can get a tattoo
You can walk alone in public
You can wear pants; you don’t have to follow a dress code
You can choose whether to wear makeup
You can wear provocative clothing if you want
You can choose whether or not to have children
You can choose your own religion
You can choose where you live
You can participate in athletics, even participate in the Olympics
You can ride a horse (women did not used to be able to sit down right on the horse, even side-saddle)
You can march in a protest
Helped get laws against marital rape
Helped get laws against stalking
Helped get laws against child molestation
Helped get laws against sexual harassment
Helped get laws against spousal abuse
Helped get laws against rape and courts that uphold them
Helped get laws for parental leave for both parents
Helped codify basic human rights for women, especially in marriage
Helped draw attention to women’s health issues like breast, ovarian and uterine cancer
Continued to fight for equal pay for equal work

*MasterWu you didn't answer my question. How do you think women can be protected in vulnerable spaces if Self-ID is allowed - specifically with male sexual offenders saying they are now females and need to go to women's present?

Given that prison is an entirely voluntary life style choice, I really couldn't give two shits...*

Not just about prisons though it is? It's about sports and toilets and changing rooms and DV shelters and rape crisis centres.

Yes, the reason that discussion is so rife o MN is because it really is one of the few places where you can be openly gender critical.

I agree with some of what people are saying. About athletics, and partially about bathrooms, but I think people arguing on here forget that trans people are real people, with legitimate concerns and feelings. There is so much disrespect flying out around.

I am very lucky in that I am happy with my body and there is no disconnect between it and my brain. I know many transgender, transvestite and gender fluid people as I'm quite active on the LGBT+ scene in a major city. None of them represent the militant TRAs seen online, but they do want some basic rights and protections.

Understandable. In real life, people rarely hold extreme views. People don't hate lesbians for their preferences. People who are mid transition and do not yet 'pass' will get leered at and feel very unsafe in the men's bathroom, particularly if they are wearing womens clothes or make up. They are not going to attack you in the women's.
Yes, there have been cases of people taking advantage. But they are so few and far between. Sexually assaulting people in bathrooms is, and always will be illegal. If perverts want to do so they will so so, self id or not, and it is a very rare incidence.

It does make me laugh that the people on these threads 'can't see any transphobia'. It IS disrespectful to dead name or misgender someone. YOU are the ones who 'shut down' conversations.

And BTW most trans people don't get gender reassignment surgery because it is a huge, potentially very risky surgery. It's not always avaliable, and what you're left with doesn't always function properly. Most transpeople prefer to work with what they've got and use aides if necessary, rather than be left with a limp, dead-feeling penis or a clitoris with no sensation. I think that's understandable.

Yes I agree Busy but we're continually told that the other examples are either trivial or impossible but the prisons issue can be visibly demonstrated with known examples.

Completely agree, april.

Apart from a minor crisis of confidence last year at the time of Spartacus, mumsnet has been an oasis of reasoned discussion about trans issues.

But outside of that bubble, many of us are finding that online, in our workplaces and even in our families (especially for those of us with adult children), debate is simply not permitted. It’s truly frightening.

Flame me for this question, its fine, im a big girl i can take it!
If you are a transwoman, and still have your penis, do you use your penis to have sex? Does that make you a man whilst having sex, or a woman with a penis using it for when you want to. Im not actually being rude. I am asking out of genuine interest on how it all works. If you feel you are a woman then surely you cant justify using your penis for sexual pleasure. If you hate your penis so much you wouldn't use it? Am I way off the mark?

maybe on reflection I should have made it clear that I saw a transwoman on the assumption that Danielle is a transwoman and would have advised me as such if we met IRL.

But you have not met Danielle. This is a man. Tell me I am wrong. I want to understand how you can see a man, and yet type 'transwoman'. I don't understand the prism that converts man to transwoman. And if 'transwomen are women' then I don't get the prism that converts 'man' into 'woman'.

Things like this keep me going.

People who are mid transition and do not yet 'pass' will get leered at and feel very unsafe in the men's bathroom, particularly if they are wearing womens clothes or make up. They are not going to attack you in the women's.

So you can understand why transwomen might feel unsafe around males in the men's toilets, but you can't understand why women might feel unsafe around males in the the ladies toilets?

Or this

The mental gymnastics that people go through to try and convince themselves that they are right on and kind.

Danielle Muscato is a man. How is Danielle a woman? How?

TellsEveryone. I'm sorry, I am getting fed up with justifying my way of thinking to you. I'm sorry you don't get what I'm trying to say, I'm sorry I'm don't get what you are trying to say. I'm still learning and to tell you the truth, I want to not bother anymore.

It's cognitive dissonance.
We're approaching a time where no-one can openly say that Danielle Muscato is a man without being screamed down and told they're a nasty genital obsessed bigot.
Everyone knows the difference between men and women.
Everyone knows how human reproduction works, and that it requires a man and a woman.
How have we come to a place where the law is likely to say (unless more of us stand up and shout about it) that anyone saying they are a woman is a legal woman. It's crazy.

I differentiate between a transwoman and a woman. Both should have their own rights and spaces in my mind.

Danielle Muscato is a man. How is Danielle a woman? How?

Somebody please tell me!

I'm sorry you don't get what I'm trying to say, I'm sorry I'm don't get what you are trying to say. I'm still learning and to tell you the truth, I want to not bother anymore

I've asked many people on here and nobody can tell me what exactly they are trying to say. You will just be another in the long line of people swearing blind that he is a woman. I wouldn't worry about it.

If you are trying to say 'yeah I don't for one second believe it but I am willing to in real life otherwise I might get a smack in the face/lose my job' then I'd understand.

Tells I am quickly learning that if you debate and ask a question they can't answer, they disappear with a new person jumping in to restart the "You're all bigots" or change the topic.

Why are you twisting my words TellsEveryone? I never said woman and I've said I have differentiate between a woman and a transwoman. I don't understand why you are saying I am 'swearing blind' that Danielle is a woman?