To find this offensive? No whites allowed

[chipvinegar]

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/2018/02/12/wellness-retreat-in-costa-rica-that-bans-white-people-sparks-controversy.amp.html

I don't live an America, and I have no experience of racism in America, I somewhat understand the desire to have a "safe space" or a space to hold conversation around the issues, however the lady running it "eliminated all white people from her personal life" doesn't think white people should own passports etc

That's a lot of negativity for a "healing" retreat

The empowerment part... yeah, but the self segregation? Travelling backwards rather than forwards somewhat surely?!

Well then if it is important for black people to have a safe space, there should therefore be black only schools surely? A safe place for our young people to hang out?

"Nothing you have offered so far has done anything to challenge that, to explain why she isn't a racist and why we are all wrong."

Nothing you agreed with. Which is different.

Again then.

Her sweeping statements against white people were different from racist ideologies. Where black people were and still are oppressed it is based on a concept of superiority of one group over another. This is also the case in different parts of the world covering different races or castes.

Listening to her and the women in her spa the are not feeling superiority to white people. They are acknowledging the differences as well as how they themselves have been treated by white people. You, by claiming that she and they are being racists for making their feelings known, are removing their agency and their personal experiences. You say they are goady for wanting that. Where do you even get off saying that? Is every call for women to have male-free spaces "a bit goady"? Take off the white hood for just a second and listen to yourself.

Racism, like the patriarchy, comes from a position of power. A black women in the US does not, by any stretch, have power.

"black only schools surely?"

Jim Crow laws tried that.

For a lot of white people globally, the worlds your oyster! I remember planning my gap year and spinning a globe going hmmm shall I go THERE or THERE or THERE...

For a lot of POC globally, movement has been a lot more restricted.

Have we spread colaberation and understanding with all our freedom? Or just mostly the exact opposite.

Ive had a "why are you here" conversation too. I was told that I could go where I wanted, so why was I there? If they could travel they would go to where I was from and didnt understand why being there with all the associated opportunity was leaving so many white teens with "wonderlust" & disatisfaction.

emtire system of [white] power stopped no [you from suceeding]

Bullshit. Just pure unadulterated bullshit. Millions if not billions have been spent on welfare for economically poorer black people in the US. Affirmative action programmes have been going for years. Mentoring programmes and opportunities galore have been tried and yet the whites are oppressing black people? Christ I would love to see what real help would be if that's oppression!

Maybe, just maybe, there is something else at play? Maybe something to do with the rate of single parent families? Maybe something to do with the incarceration rate for black males? Maybe something to do with peer pressure to be a player and not a worker amongst black youths? Maybe something other than someone else's fault all the fucking time.

I bet you're a laugh a minute at a parents' evening. Your child not doing so well? Down to oppression from a privileged class! Not able to read as well as another child? Must be the oppressive use of letters and the Latin script that dead white people adopted! Your kids the class bully and assaulting others? It's the fault of the criminal justice system that marks boys of his type out for oppression from an early age that makes him, and no other child like him, beat others up.

@aeroflotgirl. I find myself agreeing with you again. Sorry.

@sallyarmy1

From the article Rebecca posted on Muslim/Moslem.

"Whereas for most English speakers, the two words are synonymous in meaning, the Arabic roots of the two words are very different,” the article said. “A ‘Muslim’ in Arabic means ‘one who gives himself to God,’ and is by definition, someone who adheres to Islam. By contrast a ‘Moslem’ in Arabic means ‘one who is evil and unjust’ when the word is pronounced, as it is in English, ‘Mozlem’ with a z.”

So when you refuse to say Muslim, but say Moslem, even after it's explained to you, you are making a deliberate choice to be offensive.

Her sweeping statements against white people were different from racist ideologies

But is racism the same as a racist ideology? It isn't (as far as I know).

Listening to her and the women in her spa the are not feeling superiority to white people.

That's great.
but she's still pro segregation (white people should stay inside the house and not mingle with black people).
She's also trying to tell people what to do because of their race.

She isn't telling racist white people to stop mingling with black people.
She wants all white people to stay away from black people.... I wonder whether white people should do that just socially or also e.g. professionally or academically in her opinion, btw.

This is worrying and imo detrimental for everyone involved. How do you see this?

Racism, like the patriarchy, comes from a position of power.

That is a commonly used concept.

However, I'd argue that a poor, homeless white woman who thinks / says that ... black people are "inherently violent", "Italians lazy" and that "the Jews" are greedy? She's racist.

Even if she doesn't have power.

Quite obviously not as damaging as racism + power. But still racism.

Or would you be comfortable saying that this is "just" prejudice?

Scottishdiem

Acknowledging the differences

By stating that white people should all live together and not be allowed passports.

Right...🤨

poor homeless white woman has power as a white person - arguably little social capital with which to harm but she could still ruin someone's day or week with a throw-away comment. think of what difference that makes to eg someone's work productivity.

That's ok wisedad, it's shocking seeing some of the comments on here. I am not entirely white, but olive skin of Mediterranean heritage, any form of racism is unacceptable. We see no colour, only people right!

So please, enlighten me about what overriding GOOD white travel/tourism has brought the planet?, if she's so wrong.

Because the posters who are opposed to her keep saying how "EVERYONES IGNORING THE PASSPORT THING" (we havent, but anyway...) so go ahead: Why is it a GOOD thing for white people to travel?

I remember the US government (Bush?) telling the Indian and Pakistani governments that they should scrap visa requirements for Americans.

India and Pakistan require travellers from 99% of countries to have a visa, so it's an extraordinarily arrogant ask and another example of Western people expecting to be welcomed everywhere, regardless of rules.

Btw, segregation tends to create even more racism and prejudice. This woman is imo clearly pro-segregation. (for potentially more than understandable reasons, btw...)

That's usually why homogenous / less culturally and racially diverse areas of a country tend to be more racist / prejudiced.

About 1 % of the German population was Jewish before the 3rd Reich. I'm not quite sure how many Jewish people lived in Austria...

However, more than 50% percent of the population in Minsk was Jewish before WW2..
It's imo not surprising that the Nazis didn't originate in Minsk.

or Budapest (about 23% Jewish). Or Kiev...

PancakeInMaBelly

Because we live in a liberal democracy that values freedom?

Are you actually advocating travel bans based on race?

I've heard an idea similar to that recently, it wasn't very popular.

Not ONE person who objected to her passport statement has provided any counter arguement

PatriarchyPersonified

But what ACTUAL GOOD has it done the world, and do you think that good cancels out all the harm its done?

poor homeless white woman has power as a white person - arguably little social capital with which to harm but she could still ruin someone's day or week with a throw-away comment. think of what difference that makes to eg someone's work productivity.

Ah... Just out of interest, you are saying that every black person has automatically less power than the poor, homeless white woman? And that they therefore can't be racist?
Whereas she could..?

Christ I would love to see what real help would be if that's oppression!

Indeed.

Maybe, just maybe, there is something else at play?

Many things are at play.

Maybe something to do with the rate of single parent families?

This is true. There is a problem. I mean, up to 150 years ago black people were slaves in a number of places around the world including the US. Slavery is not what you would call conducive to solid family structures. And then we get onto things like lynchings and beatings and murders and separation of families. Where is the learned and remembered social structures for black people to remember? To learn from, to aspire to?

Maybe something to do with the incarceration rate for black males?

Two issues here. Black men are found more guilty of the same crime than white men and then are jailed for longer. Also, policing techniques target, drugs for example, black people more so more of them are arrested even where the rate of drug use and drug dealing is similar compared to black people and white people.

Maybe something to do with peer pressure to be a player and not a worker amongst black youths?

Oh I agree with this one. When aspiration forced on you by civic society is limited to basically doing what white people do and you struggle to relate to white people then other less suitable paths are taken. Link this with lack of suitable father figures and it does become a mess.

Maybe something other than someone else's fault all the fucking time.

We are not merely individuals with free will to take all paths or choices available to everyone. We are what society makes us and what society lets us be. Personal responsibility is important but wont take you far in a lot of cases.

PancakeInMaBelly

To flip this and show you want a silly question it is, can you tell me what good allowing black people to travel, or allowing muslims to travel has done?

Are you actually advocating travel bans based on race?

Nope. Im saying that if people are gettinv fed the fuck up of white tourists going where they want to do what they want....I cant blame them for the sentiment!

So please, enlighten me about what overriding GOOD white travel/tourism has brought the planet?, if she's so wrong.

The overriding good of Chinese tourism? Japanese tourism? The overriding good of any kind of tourism?

Tourism can be destructive. Or in a few cases positive.

Whether it's a pink, blue or orange person sitting in their 5 star resort...

Floriad I was one of the first posters on this thread, and shared my belief that prejudice from a person of colour towards a white person is not racism. It's prejudice, yes, and it could hurt.
I could say something like 'breeder' to a straight person (I wouldn't and also I have children) but it wouldn't wound in the same way as when a straight person calls me a dyke.
Racist comments tap into something that happens in wider society. It's not personal.

To flip this and show you want a silly question it is, can you tell me what good allowing black people to travel, or allowing muslims to travel has done?

Well for one theyve given white people a taste of their own medicine in some cases

www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500Oppression.html This essay has a good analogy