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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

606 replies

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 08:31

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

OP posts:

FrancinePefko · 10/02/2018 15:52

HarveyKietelRabbit
Oh come on Bertrand you do it all the time

That is true Bertrand. You must hear that all the time. If you haven't, you must have low self-awareness.

FrancinePefko · 10/02/2018 15:54

lesDeuxAlps

Hear, hear!!!I wish I was a eloquent and lucid as you.

stitchglitched · 10/02/2018 16:01

I didn't use to see myself as feminist when the only feminism I had encountered was what I'd call 'choice feminism'. I couldn't relate to the idea that stripping, porn, prostitution etc is somehow empowering and I don't believe that every choice a woman makes is a feminist one. I view this kind of feminism as 'man friendly' and a way to virtue signal without rocking the boat. Then in the past few years I discovered radical feminism and feel that it mostly reflects my own views. I now call myself a feminist.

CandlesAndIncense · 10/02/2018 16:31

A simple example is they way that posters refer to trans men as 'penises'. "penises will be allowed in changing rooms!" etc

Firstly, you mean transwomen. Transmen are TIFs.

Secondly, it is reduced to 'penises' because it takes it away from being about the person and puts the focus on exactly what the issue is. Many women have no issue with post op transsexuals being in the changing rooms and even those that are not overjoyed about it talk about tolerating it and respecting the other person.

The reason people talk about 'pensies' is that that is what self ID would mean - the presence of pensies in women only spaces. Many people hear trans and think of people who have, or are in the process of, physically/hormonally transitioning. And that is very rarely the case. It's a way of making it clear that that is not the case.

It is not about dehumanising people and reducing individuals to body parts and I think it's disingenuous to suggest that it is.

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/02/2018 16:41

Maybe being a feminist automatically endows you with a (usually unwarranted) superiority complex?

I can't agree with this. But I do think that feminism (like other social movements) attracts women who use it as a stick to
beat other women with, rather than help them.

HandbagKrabby · 10/02/2018 16:48

Please point out any feminist legislation that has stopped any women doing anything.

It’s not feminists that spent 1000s of years trying to control women’s lives and bodies. How fortunate we are to live in the tiny percent of time in a part of the world that we’re not owned by our fathers or husbands.

lesDeuxAlps · 10/02/2018 16:49

"Firstly, you mean transwomen. Transmen are TIFs."

No idea what a TIF is. I assume you're right so thanks for the correction.

"It is not about dehumanising people and reducing individuals to body parts and I think it's disingenuous to suggest that it is."

It is about dehumanising people. Thanks for the patronising clarification as to why transwomen are referred to as penises though.

I'll be honest, the trans threads on MN certainly peak-feministed me. For me, the demise of feminism (this is a fact - it's dying as a label) comes down to two things.

First, gender. I think it is not a social construct. I think that there are biological reasons for different behaviour in the genders / sexes. Please don't tell me to read Cordelia Fine again.

Secondly, the trans 'issue' has really demonstrated the anti-male bigotry prevalent in so many. I don't want to be associated with that!

So, I believe in innate brain differences, I'm not against men pro segregation / for the furthering of female interests at the expense of all other groups. This seems at odds with feminism.

Original poster

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 16:49

Certainly not being a feminist appears to be a stick to beat other women with!

OP posts:

InToMyHeart · 10/02/2018 16:52

Personally I don't think of myself as a feminist as I have never felt that I have been held back or restricted because of being female. All the jobs I have done have been paid the same as men (and everyone else) doing the same role. I'm sure other people have experienced different but for me it just isn't an issue.

I've also found that a lot of feminists that I have met (just in my, possibly skewed, experience) have been very angry and judgemental or condescending of people who don't agree with them - I'm not for a second saying that all feminists are like that it's just what I have experienced - I don't want to be like that.

The only thing I can't do as a woman is pee standing up.

CandlesAndIncense · 10/02/2018 17:05

Secondly, the trans 'issue' has really demonstrated the anti-male bigotry prevalent in so many. I don't want to be associated with that!

But you're oblivious to the anti female bigotry present in the majority of men? And the level of hatred some men display towards women?

Tbh, regarding the trans issue, the biggest concern of most people is that there is no debate about any of this. Questions people have are not being answered. People are not having their fear heard and responded to, they are being shut down and threatened with, and on the receiving end of, literal violence.

And it isn't just women or feminists. There are plenty of gay men who are saying exactly the same as feminists on the trans issue. And they are using the same language and giving the same reasons.

Aside from the trans issue, feminism is actually just about advocating for women and ensuring that women have equal rights and access to men.

PinkertonSmythe · 10/02/2018 17:08

Mainly because feminism is so irredeemably right-on and left-wing - it's utterly bizarre that a movement that purports to speak for all women only really addresses half of them. The injudiciousness of this attitude is finally starting to dawn on some feminists now that transgenderism has become the politically-correct folie du jour, but it's probably too little too late.

Coyoacan · 10/02/2018 17:10

Sorry, had to skip to the bottom to take issue with araiwa's statement

So if you don't have a problem with porn, you are in effect saying that you don't have a problrm with women bring trafficked and raped.

sentences like this are the reason i say im not

ludicrous and absurd logic that gives others a thing to laugh at and a stick to beat feminism with

I'm furious. I live in Mexico and young girls are going missing every day to feed the porn and prostitution industry. uk.news.yahoo.com/tenancingo-sex-slavery-capital-mexico-165823458.html
Why don't you bloody get informed before sneering.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 17:12

Bertrand I’m not seeing the funny in anything being used as a stick to beat other women with. Could you explain?

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 10/02/2018 17:18

Who says feminism is left wing?
I’m a feminist and have voted Tory in the last three elections. And will at the next, with the current anti Semitic brocialist gobshites running labour.
The line that feminism is inherently left wing is trotted out just as frequently by avowed anti feminists as feminists. I give it no houseroom whoever it comes from.

PinkertonSmythe · 10/02/2018 17:24

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake

Hey, I'm glad to have found one, at least! But I'd be willing to bet that a poll on here or irl would put you in a considerable minority.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 10/02/2018 17:27

You need to get out more, mate, there’s plenty of us about.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 17:32

Its my understanding that transwomen are not described as penises

Anyone in possession of a penis is referred to as a penis

As some women on here are concerned about predatory males being able to have access to potentially vulnerable women and trans women

and no...i dont think all men are predators or that all women and trans women are vulnerable

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 17:33

I also agree with wheresmyfuckingcupcake

Lazy and insulting generalising

Original poster

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 17:34

“Bertrand I’m not seeing the funny in anything being used as a stick to beat other women with. Could you explain?”

I was just amused that someone posted about feminism being a stick women use to beat other women with when it seems to be non feminists who are handing out the battering on this thread- that’s all. Nothing more complicated than that!

OP posts:

CandlesAndIncense · 10/02/2018 17:36

It's my understanding that penises are referred to as penises. So that's three definitions now.

And I think there's some rather ridiculous wilfull misunderstanding going on here.

lesDeuxAlps · 10/02/2018 17:38

@CandlesAndIncense

"But you're oblivious to the anti female bigotry present in the majority of men?"

Most men are anti-women? Did you mean to say that? If you did then you're a shining example of why I do not want to be labeled as a feminist.

"Oblivious" was an interesting choice of words. It sound a lot like what you say is true and that any one who doesn't agree is blind to the issue. Well done!

I have no idea why homosexual men have anything to do with "the trans issue". 'Not just women but gay men too.' I'd love you to explain that one away without sounding very bigoted! Are gay men nearly women? A bit effeminate?

"ensuring that women ... have access to men."

Like a rent boy? Chippendales?

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 17:38

Still not seeing the funny.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 10/02/2018 17:39

Certain people want feminism to be certain things so they can mock it or get angry with it. Those people are silly and should find something better to occupy their minds with.
The reality is feminism is a broad church. The commitment to achieving justice, dignity, autonomy and opportunities for flourishing for women where those are lacking is held in common. Beyond that, there is much scope for disagreement, and that’s perfectly fine - in fact, it’s fun.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 17:39

have no idea why homosexual men have anything to do with "the trans issue". 'Not just women but gay men too.' I'd love you to explain that one away without sounding very bigoted! Are gay men nearly women? A bit effeminate

How rude are you

Of course gay men aren't nearly women, and not effeminate either

CandlesAndIncense · 10/02/2018 17:42

Blimey there are an awful lot of angry non-feminists on here.

Er no... was merely pointing out that it wasn't man hating feminist bigots who have an issue with some of the trans activism that is happening and that there are a huge number of men (whose views seem to be more palatable to non-feminists) who feel similarly.

If you feel that gay men are a bit effeminate and nearly women, I suggest you go and educate yourself. Bigot.

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