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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

606 replies

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 08:31

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

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BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 08:35

I'm not sure that feminism should be about peace love and tolerance actually. We're fighting real battles against people who hate us and want to do us harm. Peace love and tolerance won't stop FGM. Won't stop 2 women a week being killed by men. Won't stop women being trafficked and exploited in the porn industry and prostitution......

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Pumperthepumper · 13/02/2018 08:38

sapphire you’re absolutely right, although I don’t think anyone has a problem with Francine refusing to label herself, more the consistent insults and rudeness when anyone bothers to try to interact with her. But I suppose there’s never an answer for that, is there? So I think I’ll probably bow out from trying to make sense of Francine’s contribution and leave it at ‘doesn’t like labels’.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 08:39

And frankly, I don't want to be part of a "broad church" that is cool with porn and the throwing of prostitute women to the lions.....

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Backenette · 13/02/2018 08:44

No o don’t think it’s about peace and love.

I think peace and love is an aim, but to me feminism is part of the wider struggle for a fairer world. To end poverty, violence, war, inequality in all its forms. It’s all linked - a powerful minority repress the majority to entrench their grip on power. The rich oppressing the rest of us. It’s all the same fight, and it needs to be fought because right now we are going backwards. Our rulers (by which I mean as much corporate influence as much as government) seem to want us to go back to some sort of feudalism. I’m not OK with that. I am OK with capitalism, I think it’s probably the least worst system out there but it needs to be balanced by a strong something on the other hand. Maybe that’s the state, maybe it’s the bulk of the people, but it needs checks and balances.

To me feminism is linked into the wider fights we have against inequality. If we educate women, prevent child marriages, allow women to participate in the world on equal terms we reduce population growth, increase the diversity and resilience of th economy. It’s win win- unless you’re someone who benefits from entrenched poverty and ignorance.

Feminism to me is an intrinsic part of fighting for a fairer world.

Backenette · 13/02/2018 08:45

Also I’ve seen work that suggests that bringing women into the world economy/society on equal terms would add the equivalent of another USA or China to the value of the world economy. To be cynical, THAT is what is going to get the elites listening.

Moussemoose · 13/02/2018 08:50

On a practical level supporting and educating women benefits everyone economically. It is a logical move forward.

Datun · 13/02/2018 08:54

A disconnect arises for me over this.

Belief in equality, believing in women's rights like equal pay maternity care, breastfeeding protocols, having sex as a protected characteristic is all wonderful, but none of it happens without feminism.

Being able to work, access to education, public representation, the very fact that your opinion translates into your choice of who runs the country, none of this happens without feminism.

A mere 25 years ago, your husband could rape you with impunity. There was no recourse. It was entirely legal.

And it's all well and good for women to say oh, I wish it wasn't like that, I disagree with it. But it took feminists, organising collectively, as a movement, 15 bloody years of constant lobbying to get that changed.

Recognising the reason why that took so long is part of it. 15 years of meetings, conferences, papers, submissions, all of which were rejected by the (largely) men, based on their God-given belief that coercive sex on demand was their right. Without feminists fighting tooth and nail for what was considered an unbelievably radical proposition, you wouldn't have this freedom.

Agreeing all these things are wonderful and beneficial, but deciding that the very movement that gained them for you is somehow too militant, is not only insulting, it spectacularly disregards the way things things happen.

Moussemoose · 13/02/2018 09:27

@Datun yep insulting and disregards how social change happens. Trade unionism is going through a similar crisis. All the issues unions fought for sick pay, holiday pay, limits on the working week are being thrown away in the gig economy.

People won't identify as trade unionists or feminists because they think the battle is won when in fact we are going backwards.

In reality at the moment we are holding the line not moving forward. With trans rights women are not even holding the line.

Hopefully, if we hold the line there will be another push forward but for this to happen activists have to engage the disengaged. This can be hard depressing work but alienating natural allies just makes the situation worse. Sometimes to hold the line we need to compromise.

Datun · 13/02/2018 09:49

This can be hard depressing work but alienating natural allies just makes the situation worse. Sometimes to hold the line we need to compromise.

I agree there are some compromises to be made. But I don't think there are that many.

More importantly, in my opinion, is communication.

I don't necessarily mean with people who are vehemently anti feminism as a movement.

I'm not that interested in trying to change the minds of people like that. It's rarely effective.

But threads like this are good. If you can get away from the heated arguments over red herrings.

There are so many more people reading, then posting. So any information is useful.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 10:02

“Recognising the reason why that took so long is part of it. 15 years of meetings, conferences, papers, submissions, all of which were rejected by the (largely) men, based on their God-given belief that coercive sex on demand was their right. Without feminists fighting tooth and nail for what was considered an unbelievably radical proposition, you wouldn't have this freedom.“

And I hate to say this, but compare this with the speed with which the same men have agreed that the word “woman” now can literally mean “person”. All person shortlists. People’s sport. People’s prison. And all the while “man” remains unchanged.

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sapphireblu · 13/02/2018 10:39

I don't think anyone in their right mind, male or female, would refuse to see that all the above issues are feminist issues in the sense of a travesty of human (female) rights. Nobody would argue that there massive injustices don't exist.

I think it's the gender debate that alienates a lot of women to be honest - the insistence that gender is an entirely social construct and the denial that there are any differences between male and female psychology, even on the most general level. I think a lot of women and men just don't relate to this.

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 13/02/2018 10:42

I think this hornets nest highlights why some women don’t want to align themselves with feminism.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 10:48

“ think this hornets nest highlights why some women don’t want to align themselves with feminism.”

Why? Can women only deal with simple, uncomplicated things?

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BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 10:58

Actually, i’ve just had a thought. Do you think people are always talking about how horrible the feminist boards are because they just aren’t used to women speaking out and having opinions and defending them?

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sapphireblu · 13/02/2018 11:03

No Bertrand. I think a lot of women (or men) come on the feminist boards and feel alienated by the fact every other thread is about the trans debate.

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 13/02/2018 11:08

I’m definitely not talking about the opinion issues but the trans posts on this thread seem rather hornety.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 11:16

“No Bertrand. I think a lot of women (or men) come on the feminist boards and feel alienated by the fact every other thread is about the trans debate“

Fair enough. But we had the hornety comments before trans came the issue des nos jour......

Hornety is my new favourite word.

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Datun · 13/02/2018 11:16

I think it's the gender debate that alienates a lot of women to be honest - the insistence that gender is an entirely social construct and the denial that there are any differences between male and female psychology, even on the most general level. I think a lot of women and men just don't relate to this.

I agree. And the principle has turned into shorthand. For the sake of moving an argument along.

But if you actually read these threads, feminists frequently do acknowledge that there are differences between men and women, not just reproductive biology. It's fairly well-known, for instance that men and women's eyesight is different. (can't remember exactly, but something to do with women recognising patterns quicker than men. Which might account for the, I don't care what cushions we have, they're all beige. When quite clearly, they are oatmeal, biscuit, coffee and ecru.)

How physiological differences translate into attitudes and behaviour, would be a fascinating thread.

But for the sake of defining men and women, which is what self identification is all about, the argument is that there is no such thing as a lady brain. There are not enough things that are specific to women's brains, that they can be identified all by themself, despite being in a male body.

In other words, there are simply not enough attributes and behaviours displayed by women, on a universal level, that would demonstrate that they were innate to the female sex only. Apart from biological functions like birthing feeding babies.

For every woman who is nurturing, I can give you ten who aren't. For every man who is incredibly alpha, I can give you ten who cry at rom coms.

From a political viewpoint, it's something to be viewed with great caution.

The existence of a lady brain as being feeble, irrational, incapable of education, hysterical, etc, has been used for millennia to control and subjugate women.

Our brains were literally considered not advanced enough for education. That if women were given the vote, it was essentially giving their husband two votes, because they can't think for themselves.

And until you can come up with a working model that proves all women have certain behaviours or thought patterns purely as a result of being female, then it's reasonable to suggest that the is difference down to a description of biology.

It's incredibly difficult to separate what might be innate, from socialisation.

I think most feminists feel that if you could, in a hypothetical land, dispense entirely with socialisation and expectations, then you might get down to what could be perceived as differences.

But it's a mistake to get too hung up on it. It's a counter argument and reaction to the assertion that not only is there such a thing as a lady brain, but it is entirely demonstrated by gender stereotypes. Like clothes make up.

I've never seen a man who claims to have a lady brain saying they want to do all the housework, pick up the socks, take care of the elderly parents, take the children to school, make dinner every night, do all the shopping, and try to fit in a job at the same time. So having a lady brain doesn't translate into the behaviour of the majority of women!

It's an interesting concept to work out whether women are socialised to be a certain way, or have an innate instinct for it. Because, depending on your preferences, you could argue for either.

What is undeniable is that women have certainly been programmed to behave in a specific way, over hundreds of years.

You only have to look at actual lawmaking to see it.

And it's two separate things. Arguing over whether women's behaviour is innate or socialised is certainly a feminist issue. Because it has held women back by claiming that it's all innate. That's one thing.

But arguing over the very definition of the word woman, that relies entirely on the existence of a comprehensively female brain, and ignores their biology on every level, is another.

SmileEachDay · 13/02/2018 13:04

The other complicating factor about differences between the sexes is that the brain is so plastic that it changes according to what you do - so if, for example, you do “lady tasks” like getting dinner on the table every night, then the getting dinner on the table area of the brain (I KNOW that’s not quite how it works) will be strengthened with lots of neural pathways.
Scan that brain and you could conclude that it’s a lady brain because ladies are biologically better at getting dinner on the table rather than just that they’ve exercised that bit more.

And because gender socialisation starts SO young, brains change accordingly.

sapphireblu · 13/02/2018 13:25

Datun - Thankyou for that explanation. You express things more eloquently than I can.

Without meaning to sound over-simplistic (so please forgive me), it seems to me that the inequality between the sexes is largely driven by the male-sex drive (testosterone) and related behaviours such as a greater predisposition to violence and the need for ownership / subjugation of others, notably women. Religions were conceived by men as a way of justifying male psychology and societies across the world have becime patriarchal as a result. But it all harks back to the same thing - male anxiety about being able to control themselves and this being manifested in ideological systems which control women's behaviours and shift responsibility and guilt onto women to conform.

Religion and society are manifestations of human psychology because we ourselves have forged these through history. If feminists deny that there are significant differences between male and female psychology, or argue that the "male brain" does not really exist, then where does patriarchy come from in the first place?

I do think there are more similarities than differences between men and women, but to me, even if gender is an entirely social construct as many feminists will argue, it makes no difference because social constructs are expressions of human psychology anyway. I don't know if this is making any sense, but this is why the whole advocacy of "gender neutral" seems very arbitrary to me a lot of the time. Maybe I'm too cynical about human nature, but I don't think equality will ever really exist in the way certain feminists envisage it.

FrancinePefko · 13/02/2018 13:56

sapphireblu

&To be fair, I think Francine has explained herself now - repeatedly. That's what the thread asked for. *
It's perfectly possible to believe in equality, but not feel comfortable aligning yourself with the "ism" that is feminism because you genuinely don't relate to the more radical / obsessive elements of feminism. In other words, you have a wider perspective on life. You don't see everything through one lens

Thank you. Genuinely

RatRolyPoly · 13/02/2018 14:03

Do you think people are always talking about how horrible the feminist boards are because they just aren’t used to women speaking out and having opinions and defending them?

Bertrand for my part I think the feminist boards are horrible precisely because I AM used to women speaking out and having opinions and defending them.

What I am NOT used to is anyone (except MEN) telling me - a woman - that I must conform to one single opinion on penalty of being subjected to an assortment of accusation including being a man, being a troll, being a liar, not answering questions, answering too many question, not explaining fully, using too many words to explain, not expressing an opinion, expressing too many opinions, dropping out of discussions, staying too long in discussions, and after all of that it just resorts to group name-calling and childish memes.

Believe me, myself and others are not put off by "strong women speaking their minds". It appears some people on the feminist boards are though.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 14:07

“Religion and society are manifestations of human psychology because we ourselves have forged these through history. If feminists deny that there are significant differences between male and female psychology, or argue that the "male brain" does not really exist, then where does patriarchy come from in the first place?“

I would assume from greater physical strength, and the fact that women were “handicapped” by pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. What started out as a physical thing became engrained in society - probably initially as a practical necessity.

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/02/2018 14:07

I walked away from feminism in circa 1996 after more than a decade of activism and study because I thought it had got conservative and boring and/or had been overtaken by pomos. I'm back, but on the fringes, because I still don't think that the situations and needs of poor and disadvantaged women are really being catered for. I came back because of 'trans' and feel somewhat of a 'sisterhood' re this issue, but also see many middle and upper-class women trounce those less advantaged - much like I always did.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 14:09

“that I must conform to one single opinion”

Would I be confirming your view if I were to ask what that single opinion is?

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