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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

606 replies

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 08:31

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

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RatRolyPoly · 13/02/2018 14:23

It appears to include lots of different subjects from what I can glean, but all under the trans debate (obvs). I gather the opinion one is supposed to espouse is "whatever you say".

Bertrand can I ask you, do you think everyone who has become resident on the fem boards as a result of the trans debate alone is a feminist? A good many of them will say they didn't think they were then had their heads turned by this one issue; do you think that makes a feminist?

Datun · 13/02/2018 14:34

sapphireblu

I'm really not an academic feminist. At all.

And I see exactly where you're coming from in your post.

There is no doubt the patriarchal systems are prevalent, and have always been. Backed up by any ideology they can get their hands on, including religion.

The feminist theory is that women are oppressed for their biological labour, emotional and sexual labour.

Which sounds like some kind of mad conspiracy to non-feminists. But is quite easily backed up by laws where women were property, and had no autonomy over their own bodies, etc. Social transgressions and disobedience were all severely punished.

So you have the reason they want to dominate (women's abour) and how they dominate (laws, religion) and the ever present threat of violence as the leverage.

I absolutely agree that sex drive is behind a lot of it. And testosterone, apparently, is the culprit.

Creating a higher libido and a more risk seeking attitude.

All of which gives them the opportunity to create a culture where they are entitled to women and women are subordinate.

And in return they will protect us. Which just sounds like the biggest protection racket ever!

It's feminism, I believe, which looks at ways to redress this. Radical feminism would like to dismantle the entire system, which would be an uphill struggle given the socialisation/'nature due to hormones' of men. But that's no reason not to embrace the theory.

Meanwhile, we can, absolutely address the socialisation of men and women. And are.

Hence all the equality laws.

That's the paperwork.

And then there's the culture.

Claiming that men and women are innately completely different isn't just a fact of idle speculation. It's used and exploited, over and over.

In major ways and subtle ways.

Cry like a girl.

Because only girls cry, and crying is weak. And weak is bad.

Women's work.

Drive like a woman.

We just end up being thought of as lesser than.

We are barely out of the times where but she's a woman^! carried a whole host of negative connotations.

Well actually, we are still in it. You just can't say it out loud. Much.

So addressing the reinforcement of men as leaders or heroes and women as decorative and compliant needs to be done on the most basic level. At school. And in homes.

Studies have shown that identical behaviour is judged differently when displayed by a male or female. Even in utero.

A strongly kicking baby, for instance. If it is known it is a boy, people tend to say oh you've got a footballer there. But if it's a girl, they say oh she's going to be trouble!

I understand why gender neutral is becoming a thing. It's trying to dismantle the highly gendered, consumer society that has emerged over the last 20 years or so.

When women are buying two pushchairs because the pink one they had for their daughter doesn't suit now they've given birth to a son, it's crazy. It just means Mothercare gets to sell two prams.

So in terms of consumer goods, I think gender neutrality is a good idea. It stops children being pushed into a gender box, that's dictated by retailers.

I can understand people wanting to be treated as gender neutral. So much of our treatment of others is based around our expectations based on their sex.

(I don't think we should be blind to their sex. Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime. We have to be able to acknowledge that.)

I did meet somebody, who identified as gender neutral or non-binary, and I honestly could not tell if they were male or female. It gradually dawned on me as they continued to talk and gesticulate.

But I had an initial moment of recognisable panic which I later analysed. And was very humbled to realise it was because I didn't know how to treat them.

So I have absolutely no trouble believing that we send subconscious and subliminal signals all the time to each other and to our children. So a concerted effort to not do that, sounds like a good idea to me.

TheGoldenBough · 13/02/2018 14:52

Maybe I'm too cynical about human nature, but I don't think equality will ever really exist in the way certain feminists envisage it.

Sadly, I think you're probably right. But that doesn't mean we should roll over and just accept whatever the patriarchy and toxic masculinity throws at us. We can't let it be easy for them. As fast as we are knocking the walls down, men are building them up again.

Whether it's ensuring financial dependence on men; unattainable 'beauty' ideals and the impact of not achieving them; increasingly porn influenced expectations of sex and appearance; eradication of 'women' as a discrete group altogther, every time we achieve something, they try to hold us back.

Datun has explained this whole thing remarkably well; clearly, succinctly and calmly, at every turn.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 14:57

Oh right, you’re not talking about feminism at all. You’re just talking about trans issues.

Frankly, from what i’ve seen, the imperative “our way or the highway” seems to be coming from the trans activist side. If you are’t prepared to say “trans women are women” then you’re fair game. As many people, including many well known radical feminists have discovered to their cost. No room for nuance there. No space for I believe trans women should have a life free from discrimination or harassment- but I also think non trans women have rights too. And in the places where those rights genuinely conflict, then the rights of natal women must come first. No space even for discussion. No space for questioning. Just dogma.

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TaylorJade77 · 13/02/2018 15:00

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sapphireblu · 13/02/2018 15:34

I suppose I worry that the a societal shift towards gender neutrality will simply have the effect of replacing one form of oppression with another. Why should women have to conform to the "neutral" or feel as if, in the name of feminism, they should adapt more "masculine" behaviour patterns - whether this be in the workplace, the way they parent / bond with their children, the way they dress, express sexuality and so on? Why should the expression of the feminine seen as inferior or as weakness? I don't think gender neutrality is necessarily the answer because it could restrict self-expression in so many areas of life. I read somewhere that only 20% of human behaviour is conscious anyway and the rest is instinctive.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think conflating "equality" with "sameness" is to misunderstand human nature. But again, maybe I'm too cynical.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 16:07

I don’t think I think of gender neutrality as a feminist goal. Do others? My main concern about gender neutrality is that it generally seems to mean default male. I think the baby name threads on here are interesting in this context. Gender neutral names invariably seem to mean boy’s names used for girls. And historically, once a boy’s name is used for girls, people stop using it for boys-Hilary, Jocelyn and Evelyn are good examples. And it seems fine to suggest James for a girl but never Jane for a boy.........

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BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 16:09

I just think that in particular it should be OK for men to take on traditionally female behaviour.

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MephistophelesApprentice · 13/02/2018 16:16

Why would we take on behaviours that we (according to your beliefs) created as chains in the first place?

Why don't we just abandon those behaviours that were designed to keep women submissive and docile?

Unless you're talking about traditional roles, in which case obviously yes.

Datun · 13/02/2018 17:29

Gender neutrality doesn't mean everyone should suddenly change their behaviour. It means that behaviour shouldn't be gendered.

So, baking and crochet is just baking and crochet it's not 'female' behaviour.

There was a woman on a thread yesterday who said her son's nursery kept telling him off for playing with the 'girls' toys.

They're just toys.

This perception that everything has to be gendered is what needs to be changed. Not the behaviour itself.

SmileEachDay · 13/02/2018 17:52

Exactly Datun - it’s the stuff that becomes gender neutral. The people just carry on being people, with personalities and preferences.

BasiliskStare · 13/02/2018 18:33

Bertrand to answer this question "Actually, i’ve just had a thought. Do you think people are always talking about how horrible the feminist boards are because they just aren’t used to women speaking out and having opinions and defending them?"

I can only speak for myself , no-one else. Personally what I find ( and I know this is my problem - and to some extent laziness in looking up - I will take that criticism right on the chin ) slightly off-putting I would say rather than intimidating about the feminist boards is that there is a raft of acronyms I do not know , there are authors and texts and terms I am not familiar with , and so to post something which does not appear to be backed up with sources or somewhat academic or learned ( as it learn Ed for pronunciation) but rather just an opinion or view I have shied away from. Women having opinions - I'm right in the front of the square for that. Does that resonate at all ?

TheGoldenBough · 13/02/2018 18:34

Yes. It's the things that become gender neutral and men and women go back to being men and women; defined by their sexual/reproductive differences - like all animals.

BasiliskStare · 13/02/2018 18:39

& an example Bertrand
I would assume from greater physical strength, and the fact that women were “handicapped” by pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. What started out as a physical thing became engrained in society - probably initially as a practical necessity.

This - no esoteric articles to look up - I can get that point. Now in no way - be in no doubt - in no way am I saying that authors , activists etc should not be referred to - NOT AT ALL , but I suppose I might categorise myself as an instinctive , casual ( not sure that word is right ) and non academic feminist. I exaggerate for effect. I am perfectly capable of looking stuff up & I just might . Thanks all Grin

sallyandherarmy · 13/02/2018 18:43

I am definitely not a feminist. They are outdated now and rather boring. They have a mantra.....

I believe in equity over equality.

sallyandherarmy · 13/02/2018 18:48

WHAT is a 'non trans woman'??

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 18:55

"WHAT is a 'non trans woman'??"

I think they are what boring outdated feminists like me call "women"..........Grin

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SmileEachDay · 13/02/2018 19:11

Outdated and boring?

How so? That’s a funny insult to chuck at a “movement” 😂

Datun · 13/02/2018 19:23

but I suppose I might categorise myself as an instinctive , casual ( not sure that word is right ) and non academic feminist.

That's me.

When I first read the feminist boards, it all seemed very scholarly.

And a little harsh. Far more opinionated, en masse, than I had been used to. In that there was a lot of bluntness. And the sounds of gloves coming off.

And I lurked for ages. Dipping in, dipping out. Reading links, studies, articles.

And gradually, without even posting, I learnt a lot. Not just information, but things crystallised in my head in a way that came as something of a relief. A dot connecting exercise, sort of thing.

And with that came such clarity that all the rest seemed to fall into place like dominoes.

I still don't read feminist books. I've bought them, but haven't read them.

I should, really. But I can't help having a preconceived notion that the author will simply be preaching to the choir now.

So I don't always get references, either.

Smile
sapphireblu · 13/02/2018 19:26

Yes, it makes more sense when you see it as "the stuff becomes non-gendered".

However, if you have girls for instance, like mine, who refused to wear trousers until they were about 8, would feminists see this as genuine free choice in their part, or all they already conforming to patriarchy?

Similarly, if there is increasing societal pressure on a woman to share parental leave with her husband after a baby, even though she would instinctively prefer not to ( and the DH feels that his wife is more attuned to the baby in the first year), is this actually move towards real equality, or just dismissing / neutralising women's biological instincts.

Anatidae · 13/02/2018 19:44

Here in Sweden boys and girls are taught to knit at school. My local knitting shop always has a bloke or two perusing the yarns. Ditto my local fabric store - often see men in there buying fabric. It’s not seen as a gendered pursuit as much
Kids clothes tend to be brightly coloured and just practical - kids spend a lot of time outdoors here and a dress is a pita if you’re out at kindergarten climbing trees. Most children wear pants and tops. In the winter spring and autumn they are all in serious overalls and waterproofs so again clothing is functional. It’s also bloody expensive so styles that are NOT heavily gendered are more popular - a single winter overall costs about 130 quid so you want it to be lasting more than one kid or to sell on. My son started kindergarten in winter and I had no idea which of the little spherically-clad tots were girls or boys. All just practically dressed and playing. They have dolls and bricks and cars and dinosaurs and dress up and a kitchen and none of it is ‘for girls’ or ‘for boys’ it’s just toys to play with. A significant proportion of the staff are male

I rarely see girls all in frothy pink. The toy shops are sorted by ‘what stuff does’ so there’s a dress up bit with princess Elsa frocks next to Nina turtle shells. Then there’s a ‘playing house’ section, soft toy section etc. Ive never seen a pink aisle and a blue aisle of toys.

And lo. When they get to adulthood these massive strong strapping blokes, who look like they could step off a longship and bash your head in with an axe, are all happily pushing prams on paternity leave, doing their share of the housework and shock horror! Treating women like humans! Fucking revolutionary!

I’ve never been sexually harassed since I moved here. No catcalling. No groping. No talking to my husband about the car and looking through me, or any of that shit.

It’s all socialisation. All of it. And it starts really young with fucking headbands on girls and ‘oooh he’s wearing a dress better stop that’ and ‘that’s for boys’. Sod that. Girls and boys can wear dresses. Girls and boys can climb trees, use construction toys and dolls and all of it.

I remember vividly being told at school that ‘this is for boys’ (never at home, thank god) and feeing quite enraged by it, even as a young child.

Backenette · 13/02/2018 19:47

would feminists see this as genuine free choice in their part, or all they already conforming to patriarchy?

I would say:

It’s their choice.
Their choice probably isn’t free, no.

The point isn’t stopping girls playing with dolls if they want to, it’s about not having a go at a little boy playing with a doll. Or telling a girl that her dinosaurs and lego are for boys. Wear pink if you want, but don’t force all pink, or mock boys for wearing pink. And accept that the choice isn’t free of the media and all the toy shops push pink.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2018 19:55

“However, if you have girls for instance, like mine, who refused to wear trousers until they were about 8, would feminists see this as genuine free choice in their part, or all they already conforming to patriarchy?“

They are already conforming to the patriarchy. I was the proud mother of two stereotypes. My dd once refused to go to gym club (her absolute favourite thing) because she decided that the shorts I had packed for her were boy’s ones. She most certainly didn’t get that from home!

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Datun · 13/02/2018 20:41

sapphireblu

Other people have answered, but here's my take.

It's a bit chicken and egg, isn't it?

How do you know if your daughters are wearing dresses because they like the feel, or because, socially, they know they're 'for girls'?

All you do know is that they will have been receiving subconscious and subliminal messages that they are for girls.

And just work off that.

I imagine it becomes more of an issue as they reach adolescence. The cropped tops, killer heels, the selfies.

If you can make a concerted effort to demonstrate to them, whilst they're children, that these things do not have a correlation with their biology, when they become older, you can explain how, almost everyone, adheres to the same patriarchal system. And why.

And how they can think outside of it, for themselves.

BasiliskStare · 14/02/2018 02:41

Bertrand

This - I can get on board with Grin

"WHAT is a 'non trans woman'??"

I think they are what boring outdated feminists like me call "women"..........grin