Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

TheGoldenBowl

Some gems from you...

She doesn't like feminism for this sort of indefinable reason - when, infuriatingly, the reason is that she doesn't get it.

Honestly, it's bloody obvious, simple stuff. But so many people lack critical thinking skills and just buy into it

Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights. It just is that. So you saying "yes, I do believe that but no I reject the term feminist" is a bit mad

Bit mad. Doesn't get it. Lacks critical thinking?

Were you by any chance head of campaigning for the Labour Party in 1983? I was only 12 at the time but it had the hallmarks of your genius ability to win them over. I suspect you lent your wisdom to the Remain and Hillary Clinton campaigns too.

Just keep telling your potential support that they're thick.

You will definitely win and win bigly!

Francine-what do you want? What is your ideal world?

Peace, love, tolerance, respect, justice, health and happiness

Datun
You started that thread about PERF yourself? What's that all about?

I did indeed. I came across it for the firat time on MN used by a MN Feminist "proudly coming out as a PERF (Penis Exclusionary Radical Feminist).

I started my own thread about it to see if any other people thought it was a useful phrase and if they thought it would catch on. Several MN Feminists were very happy with it and proudly used it.

So please take some responsibility for the misguided actions woeful "marketing" of the "feminist brand". It is just one own goal after another.

Frankly, it's probably less about not understanding, and more about not caring.

If you don't feel personally harmed by sexism, it's sometimes difficult to get worked up about people who are.

That hasn't been my own, personal experience. Because, as people say, once you see it, it is absolutely like looking through the matrix.

Even if one, personally, has been lucky enough to avoid anything overt. And therefore not really noticed anything.

Once you see it, it's such a blindingly flash of clarity that it's incredible that you hadn't seen it before.

It's like having a Babel Fish in your ear constantly translating the world into a completely different language.

As they say, first of all it pisses you off, then it sets you free.

I know this because it came to me quite late in life. So, momentarily, I had a foot in both camps, as it were.

Several MN Feminists were very happy with it and proudly used it.

So please take some responsibility for the misguided actions woeful "marketing" of the "feminist brand". It is just one own goal after another.*

I don't understand this. Are you saying you did it deliberately to trick people?

I have absolutely no idea what's going on now. No idea at all.

It's nice to know there are people who want equality for men and women even if they don't really think of themselves as feminists. It is feminism of course.

For my part, I've been following the trans issue on several threads and it seems it's taken over everything. I'm disheartened that it is overshadowing so many other important issues which have recently eroded women's place in UK. I find it difficult to identify with many feminists here.

For my part, I've been following the trans issue on several threads and it seems it's taken over everything. I'm disheartened that it is overshadowing so many other important issues which have recently eroded women's place in UK. I find it difficult to identify with many feminists here.

Tbh, it's just a bit of a hot topic at the moment and people are learning about it and 'peak transing' all the time, which is why there are so many threads about it.

This is just a message board. It's not reflective of people's real lives.

Golden, I'm trying to see it that way but it's hard not to take it to heart.

Well I, for one, am very concerned about equality for men and women. I have seen myself how the patriarchy and misogyny can be damaging to men and boys.

I have a son, I know men.

So many people see feminists as 'man hating' but that is certainly not the case for me.

I don't understand this. Are you saying you did it deliberately to trick people?

Who cares what she did. She's just merailing because she's a dull person who loves the sound of her own voice. Of course PERF wouldn't exist without TERF.

Actually I used the expression in the first instance after being called TERF, having listened to a wonderful feminist speaker use it because she was having TERF screamed at her by a bunch of bullying men. I stand by it, as I’m proud to a radical feminist and refuse to have people make me feel ashamed about that. I will continue to centre women in feminism and that includes fighting for the rights of women to keep penis owners (men) out of female spaces.

TheGoldenBowl
You keep giving variations on an answer that doesn't make sense and we keep trying to point this out.

Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights. It just is that.
So you saying "yes, I do believe that but no I reject the term feminist" is a bit mad

Buddhism is the belief in the cultivation ofwisdom,loving-kindnessandcompassion.

"Is it just that?".

Of course not. I can say "Yes, i am an enthusiastic supporter of the pursuit of wisdom, loving kindness and compassion, They are all good things and we could do with a bit more in the world".

But am I a BuddhIST? Of course not.

I do not want to label myself "Buddhist" because that would imply that I support and believe in a whole lot more than the above and want to announce publicly that I am a member or supporter of an overall movement / belief system. I'm not.

Buddhism has a much better "brand" than femininism and some of the most wonderful, wonderful people I know are Buddhist. But right now - many of them are being asked repeatedly about where they stand on the way Myanmar (an avowedly Buddhist country) is treating its Rohingya Muslim minority. My Buddhist friends are having to say "Oh no. I am not that kind of Buddhist. In fact those "Buddhists" in Myanmar are clearly doing Buddhism wrong"

Even a quick glance at the Feminist pages on MN shows that the above argument plays out time and time again. You're told constantly that you are wrong, stupid, lack critical thinking, a handmaiden etc if you say e,g. "You know what, in the big scheme of things and all manner of 1st world problems, I am not going to get worked up over a person with a penis using a locked cubicle next to mine or to put on make-up using a mirror next to me".

See what I mean about "Ism" movements and belief systems? It is one thing to agree with some of their core tenets. It is completely another to adopt the the label of membership.

Ask me again. Go on..

I'm an egalitarian. I dislike the term "feminist".

Francine One of the 'gems' you've attributed to me wasn't even written by me! Have you not clocked that there's a golden bough as well

And what on earth are you wittering on about with your 1983 Labour campaign etc? Well, you were only 12 in 1983 were you? Okaaay. I was 4. Isn't this a nice chat? I'm sure it's relevant in some way that makes sense to you...

As for the 'bigly' quote...

The thing is, you've compiled a little list of ways you feel I've told you you're thick (even though one of them wasn't me...) - but you haven't actually explained how or why my assessment is inaccurate.

So to me, it goes a bit like this:

Francine: black is white

Me: hmmm, that seems a bit mad

Francine: oh, look at you calling me stupid

Me: well, if the cap fits...

So how about actually explaining how you can want to advance women's rights and NOT be a feminist, in a way that doesn't rely on either a bizarre hatred of words ending in 'ist' or a churlish 'because you lot smell' sentiment. Good luck!

label of membership

But that's just it!!

Feminism isn't a club you join. It's not a temple you worship at.

It's a very broad way of stating you support equal rights for women.

And if you can't even do that...

And I suppose it comes down to whether you feel having to explain your version of feminism all the time (and, seriously, are you that fascinating that everyone's going to be clamouring to know your position on every women's issue?!) is soooo onerous that it outweighs actually standing up to be counted as, broadly, in favour of women's rights. Gee, it's a tough one

Peace, love, tolerance, respect, justice, health and happiness

All of these things can be ours!

We can do it together!

Francine that quote wasn’t mine either, although I do agree with it. I think you’ve misunderstood it though, it doesn’t mean that feminists are absolving ourselves of responsibility, it highlights another hurdle we have.

Ytho I peak-transd a while ago and I also find the number of trans threads a bit annoying. But I also feel I’ve learned so much from mumsnet about the impact of TW on women and I can understand the need for most of it.

Oh god-this while business isn't just an extended "You're all transphobes" is it? I can't bear it!

PositivelyPERF

Actually I used the expression in the first instance after being called TERF, having listened to a wonderful feminist speaker use it because she was having TERF screamed at her by a bunch of bullying men.

Thanks for clarifying. You used it first. Nobody "forced" you to call yourself a PERF and a have a username to go with it. Would you be happy for them now to shout PERF at you.

I stand by it, as I’m proud to a radical feminist and refuse to have people make me feel ashamed about that. I will continue to centre women in feminism and that includes fighting for the rights of women to keep penis owners (men) out of female spaces

I have a lot of respect for your directness and honesty (unlike several people upthread that the term PERF was foisted upon Feminists by the same people who called you TERFs.

Thanks again for clarifying that you picked it. But I do think it's another example of Feminists running head first into a booby trap laid for you by MRAs. Whereas in the past you were called Transphobic by your opponents, they will now call you *Penisphobic, Phallophobic"

I am guessing that you personally wouldn't mind this but it is yet another example of really really badly thought through "marketing" which will put more middle of the road, moderate women off.

If you say you are a PERF -you will have to explain that this does not mean you object to a baby boy being brought into a women only space.

Or do you? I think the Lesbian Separatist Feminists want total separation from all "penis-owners".

BTW How do feel about being called a "Vagina-Owner"? Is it helpful to reduce people to a single sexual organ?

So on this thread feminism is about peace, love and tolerance and working together for a more equal society. It's a broad church and we can join together to support each other.

I can get behind that.

If you say you are a PERF -you will have to explain that this does not mean you object to a baby boy being brought into a women only space.

Why? To whom? Only to people who are looking for an arguement. You do realise, don’t you, that PerfectlyPERF is not called that on her birth certificate, that’s not her actual name. She isn’t introducing herself to her kids’ teachers as PerfectlyPERF. So why would the conversation be anything unlike

‘I’ve never heard of the term PERF before’
Perfectly explains, (as she explained to you Francine)
‘I see’

Why, unless she was talking to someone completely obtuse would they respond with ‘please now list exactly which penises you have a problem with and where, beginning with babies in changing rooms’?

Please do not respond to this question with ‘because I hate all labels’, I think it’s clear that nobody is asking you about your aversion to labels.

To be fair, I think Francine has explained herself now - repeatedly. That's what the thread asked for.

It's perfectly possible to believe in equality, but not feel comfortable aligning yourself with the "ism" that is feminism because you genuinely don't relate to the more radical / obsessive elements of feminism. In other words, you have a wider perspective on life. You don't see everything through one lens.

I believe in the central tenants of Christianity or Islam, but I can't identify as either because I'm not comfortable with the interpretations and the way either religion is delivered / used to justify other agendas.