Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

You bit? Stop acting like women are doing any of this.

And you bit, hook, line and sinker. Now you have yet another stupid phrase that you will constantly be having to justify, excuse, explain or blame.

Eh? I've never had to explain it until just now. Because it's self evident to most feminists. As it evolved from terf.

That's what I meant when I talked about evidence and statistics. And assuming that feminists just have an opinion about something, rather than a topic evolving.

You had an erroneous opinion about something, because you're not aware of the topic.

You also sound very cross.

FrancinePefko

You started that thread about PERF yourself? What's that all about?

Francine- what’s your agenda? I don’t mean that in a hostile way- I just can’t get a handle on where you’re coming from.

Bertrand Thank you - I am not sure , as in so many ways I am sure I try my best with good intentions but not perfect,

My post was because a previous PP said they were interested in feminism because they had a daughter. I can understand that. Conversely , I am interested in feminism ( of whatever type) because I have a son. I can remember ( because I am quite old) various things which just would be thought of as shocking today. Things which would no longer be thought legal or acceptable in a work environment.

What I am more interested now in , is my son supporting cultural and social things which support ( or at least do not denigrate women) - and by that I do not mean the theatre etc I mean how women are referred to or treated or spoken about .

Bertrand I do realise I have not answered the question so do say if you would rather I carried this on on another thread but I absolutely agree with you about bringing up sons as well as daughters.

It's just that I don't want to be associated with you

Well, that's very rude Francine ! What did I ever do to you?!

You don't really know anything about any of us. You're just being churlish because there's no sensible way to object to being a feminist if you genuinely want to protect women's rights.

Do grow up.

I still don't know what it is Francine doesn't want to be associated with......I honestly think that nobody on this thread has said anything that anyone could get so angry about.

Curious thread. Like a pp, I’m also miffed that there are women who don’t think of themselves as feminists.

I stumbled across Germaine Greer in my early teens and that was it for me: eyes opened. My feminism has changed and evolved since then, and solidified into what it is today: radical feminism (against pornography, prostitution, am gender critical).

I understand the allure of liberal feminism - it’s easy, isn’t it? Women get to say every choice they make is a feminist choice because they are a female making said choice. It’s like feminism lite. Only feminism is about working towards the emancipation of women from the systematic oppression known as patriarchy. Me painting my nails, choosing to get married, or doing away with heels has sod all to do with that.

I’m still amazed there are people out there who think that because someone chooses something it means they are not oppressed. Oh, if only things were that easy. Still, once you see it all, you can’t unsee it, and I guess there’s something nostalgic remembering being blind to it.

The sad thing is that Francine, and others like her, will go away in a strop now - because she can't really argue her case. And then she'll have this sense of being annoyed with us (rather than with her own lack of insight) and, on the next thread, will declare again that she doesn't like feminism for this sort of indefinable reason - when, infuriatingly, the reason is that she doesn't get it.

I totally blame the vilification of feminism in the media (mainly a certain paper...) - so many people have this unease with feminism. But it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, yet the fact that a significant proportion of peoppe feel it lends it a false credibility.

TheGoldenBowl- I have just said practically the same thing on another thread. The perception of feminism that some people have is a construct of a misogynist media and MRA. And there is bugger all we can do about it.

I’m still amazed there are people out there who think that because someone chooses something it means they are not oppressed

And me, but I also understand how it happens.

The perception of feminism that some people have is a construct of a misogynist media and MRA

I don't understand how people just don't see this. It's in the interest of the authority voice to undermine any voice that challenges their authority. Honestly, it's bloody obvious, simple stuff. But so many people lack critical thinking skills and just buy into it.

there's no sensible way to object to being a feminist if you genuinely want to protect women's rights.

If you keep asking the same question, I am happy to keep giving the same answer.

I absolutely support and would vote for anything that makes for a fairer society, equality of opportunity and justice for all people (regardless of anything I consider irrelevant - including their sex, age, race, religion, sexual orientation, caste; creed, body shape, ability, hair colour, eye colour etc etc)

If the question in the thread had been "Do you believe in fairness and equality of opportunity between men and women, I - like probably 90% +|of people would say a resounding yes.

But the question is "Do you consider yourself to be a feminist?"

My answer to that question is an emphatic No.

I say no because I reject any and all "ist" labels. They denote allegiance with a "movement". I would prefer to express my personal views rather than declare allegiance with a movement. Movements are to often characterised by their extreme wings. I don't have the time or energy to be explaining how I disagree that I should be frothing at the mouth at the idea of a person with a penis using a lockable cubicle next to me.

It's just easier for me to reject your label

Ask me again😃

TheGoldenBowl

The sad thing is that Francine, and others like her, will go away in a strop now - because she can't really argue her case. And then she'll have this sense of being annoyed with us (rather than with her own lack of insight)

Thank you for proving the point yet again. .."unless you agree with us you must be thick "lack insight".

Boom

Bertand & I am quite proud of myself for posting on a feminist type thread , because , in truth , I think they are sometimes a bit scary , & I will look up all the acronyms and terms , but

but , my point remains ,

I have a son - I have thus far and will in the future try to make him the kind of man who will make the situation we have at the moment ( and of course we have had in the past) less so. DH is like that so we have a double pronged attack.

As an aside , I met Germaine Greer once - more literature than feminism , but very engaging woman.

The perception of feminism that some people have is a construct of a misogynist media and MRA

I don't understand how people just don't see this. It's in the interest of the authority voice to undermine any voice that challenges their authority. Honestly, it's bloody obvious, simple stuff. But so many people lack critical thinking skills and just buy into it.*

Yes, but also it’s a kind of convenient, easy-way-out - I can totally see the appeal of wanting to believe that we don’t need feminism or that feminists exaggerate how bad things are for women. I think that’s why there’s so much ‘well, MY husband wouldn’t...’ ‘I’ve never experienced any unwanted...’ ‘what about REAL rape’. A kind of (hopefully) unconscious desperation to minimise.

“I have a son - I have thus far and will in the future try to make him the kind of man who will make the situation we have at the moment ( and of course we have had in the past) less so. DH is like that so we have a double pronged attack”

Post of the Week!

I would always described myself as a feminist. What I feel has changed over the last ten years or so is more my view of the world and power structures in general.

Having been pregnant, given birth, and being ill during pregnancy has shown me that there is too much that women are expected to put up with that men are t
Having seen friends divorce and previously decent men behave appallingly to wives and children has shaken me
Having experience trying to juggle work and motherhood has shown me how entrenched the ‘facilitated man’ trope is and how entrenched Male power is at every level.

So I’d say I’ve changed from probably quite a liberal, optimistic feminism to a far more radical stance over the last 10-20 years.

I would prefer to express my personal views rather than declare allegiance with a movement.

Irony overload.

You wouldn't have a had a cat's chance in hell to publically express any views, if it hadn't been for the movement you so vehemently decry.

You wouldn't have a had a cat's chance in hell to publically express any views, if it hadn't been for the movement you so vehemently decry.

Exactly!

Yes, but also it’s a kind of convenient, easy-way-out - I can totally see the appeal of wanting to believe that we don’t need feminism or that feminists exaggerate how bad things are for women. I think that’s why there’s so much ‘well, MY husband wouldn’t...’ ‘I’ve never experienced any unwanted...’ ‘what about REAL rape’. A kind of (hopefully) unconscious desperation to minimise.

True.

Sad thing is that, when away from his wife, a lot of husbands 'would'.

The times I've read threads on here from women who've discovered their "not like that..." husbands and partners are cheating on them; visiting prostitutes; accessing violent misogynistic porn; using prostitutes; trying to sext a much younger colleague; are sending friends disrespectful texts about women they both know; or where they are asking "did my bf/dh/dp rape me..?"... .. . the list goes on.

If you keep asking the same question, I'm happy to keep giving the same answer

Is that what you think is happening Francine ?

My interpretation is slightly different. I think you keep giving variations on an answer that doesn't make sense and we keep trying to point this out.

Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights. It just is that. So you saying "yes, I do believe that but no I reject the term feminist" is a bit mad.

It's like, say, if you had a cat, and everyone could see you had a cat but you kept rejecting the term 'cat' because you'd once read 'McCavity the Mystery Cat' and decided all cats were villains.

A reminder for all of the original premise of Bertrand's thread...

Relates to the original Are you a feminist? Yes/No thread

"If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!*

As several other posters have observed, you ask question - pretending to be curious...But you're not at all.

It's a very interesting influencing style you have. Ask the same question again and again and then tell people who have a diffsrent view that they are wrong.

No wonder that the "brand" of feminism is doing so well - with activists like you.

I think it's possible to be a feminist in the sense that you support equal rights for women, but at the same time reject the more radical theories which can feel alienating to many women.

For instance, when I was younger I travelled a lot in through Midfle Eastern countries and was basically on a feminist rampage for years.

As I've got older, I have come to see how some aspects of "the patriarchy" have actually benefitted me since having children. For instance, if I'd had the type of husband that expected me to get back to work after the DC, it might have been "equality", but it's not an equality I would have actually wanted, when all is said and done.

Also, it's difficult to admit to MN feminists sometimes, that as a woman, my female sexuality is an important part of who I am and looking / being feminine is not a weakness, as far as I'm concerned. I've had all body hair lasered, for instance. I don't need anyone to point out why this is essentially not a feminist choice. I know why, I really do, but I feel better and enjoy life more if I like the way I look and feel.

I don't think equality should mean gender-neutral either and this is another MN feminist perspective that I think possibly alienates a lot of women. The trans debate is not something I can get worked up about either.

I'm just being honest about why some women, like me, may feel that feminism is more than about equality. It can sometimes seem a bit dogmatic, self-conscious and restrictive.

We get it francine

You think bertrand is annoying and you dont like her thread

Pumperthepumper

The perception of feminism that some people have is a construct of a misogynist media and MRA

See, you'll never hear a feminist ever take any responsibility. They'll never say "Yes, we should definitely up our game to win more women over".

Oh no...it's always, always someone else's fault.