Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

If you broadly believe in equality, you must surely believe in taking actions to enable an oppressed group to achieve equality

^A MILLION TIMES THIS^

Francine

So is your point that, because there are different types of feminism, you can't be arsed with it?

Why should the existence of different strands of a belief system render that system pointless?

When deciding on 'yes or no' to the broad category of 'feminism', all you have to decide is whether you think we should press for equal rights for women. That's it. If it's a 'yes', you're a feminist.

The rest is (admittedly important) detail.

I differ massively from a liberal feminist. Doesn't stop me saying I'm a feminist.

The bottom line for me is whether I think women's rights are a) still not equal and b) worth fighting for.

Society has done a spectacular number on feminism, to the extent that intelligent women are scared stand up and be counted. It's enough to make you weep.

So am I a woman worthy of equal respect, and are my choices worthy of respect, or does every choice I make that doesn't match yours make me a subservient drone to the Patriarchy?

This is such a strange statement to make on a post complaining of double standards. Does every choice I make that doesn’t match feminist ideologies make me less of a feminist? I don’t think so. Do you? Do you think I have to base my whole life on feminist ideologies in order to consider myself a feminist?

So, I have an MSc in a STEM related subject and I still believe women are underrepresented in STEM. I don’t believe that’s because they don’t want to be, I believe it’s because of lack of opportunity plus a healthy dose of ‘its a boy’s thing’. I think it’s important that ‘having a choice’ means actually having that choice, not because of lack of opportunity for a different choice.

I make decisions for my family that are possibly considered anti-feminist because they suit my family. I don’t think that makes me less of a feminist. I’m aware of the arguements behind my choice. I can still see why it’s important that women have a choice, a true choice, with relation to work, housework, childcare, financial independence, maternity leave and a whole host of other issues even if my life means I’m not fighting against every single one of them 100% of the time.

I can appreciate why marriage is considered a patriarchal institution while still being married.

Francine

Feminists didn’t invent PERF. As I said, some pages back, it was an exasperated response to TERF - a term which on inspection makes zero sense.

It’s not feminists who haven’t thought through their language here - it’s a group attacking women. If you choose to use that as a stick to beat other women with, then that’s fine. But don’t pretend feminists invented the stick.

Francine so the label thing again?

Pumperthepumper
Francine so the label thing again?

Duh...yeah. Isn't that the whole fucking point of the thread? Those who reject the "label" feminist - explain why.

I have explained why and your reaction is
"That's not good enough"

I, and many others; have explained that we support the intent of equality between the sexes. But many of us reject the label of "feminist" because you lot have dragged the movement through the shit unnecessarily.

I have explained why and your reaction is
"That's not good enough"

Nope, just wanted to check you were indeed saying the same thing over and over again, while being as unpleasant as possible to those who were trying to have a discussion with you.

I forayed once onto the feminist boards. Here is my second go on a related topic.

I would call myself a feminist. Whether it be liberal ( I suspect) or radical - I will have to read some of the articles and links before any one tells me what I should know.

If I had to blurt out my first thought , it would be equal rights , equal pay, and - and I will probably explain this very badly , a environment where bullying and violence towards women becomes less of a problem because all our children are brought up to believe this is bad , not just women sticking up for themselves ( told you I would explain it badly) Increasingly I do worry much more about objectification of women.

I have made what some would call unfeminist choices.

1. I got married , this one - I'll ask anyone to hold my watch for , I just don't see why in modern times marriage is an unfeminist choice. It seems sensible as a contract between two people . The days of dowries etc are over. This one , and I know some people will disagree , I do not get. I also think there should be civil partnership for those who want it amongst heterosexual couples.

1. The one which 20 odd years on I find harder to justify is that DS has my husband's last name. My reasons were - he ( DH) thought it was important for what at the time I got as a reason ( and it was not the family line per se) ( I know I know )this has been gone into 1000 times ) but at the time I really wasn't as bothered - traded for final say on his first name . Oh and just to show how rubbish I am we did the "flakey" thing of him having my family name as 3rd surname. I didn't like made up double barrelled names. I just thought he would thank us is the future when filling out forms to have a shorter last name ( and he does.) I always said to him if he chose he could refer to himself as ( my last name DH last name ) Never has but if it comes to it he says I am a " my surname ") . Now that probably makes me a bit woolly wobbly , but I still think I am a feminist. Just need to do more research to find out which kind - although I think I can guess.

Can I self identify as a feminist

I only have a son & he is now a young adult , I wonder whether as he has grown older I worry more about feminism than I did ( question for this -ie me - student ? ) IE him trying to be more of the answer rather than the problem.

I am sure that will be considered a trite answer by many & I probably do not think of these things as much as many , but I've tried to give an honest answer there - for better or worse.

Apologies - this probably should have gone on the other thread.

TheGoldenBowl
So is your point that, because there are different types of feminism, you can't be arsed with it

Er no.

My point is that you have allowed your movement to be defined by the batshit crazy wing (much like today's Labour Party). If I adopted your label - I would constantly have to be clarifying what "kind" of WhatereverIST I am. I just don't have the time, energy or effort for that. I would rather spend my time arsed with the things matter - equality; fairness, justice etc etc. The goal/ outcome is more important than the label.

The fact that so many MN Feminists simply can't or won't get this convinces me that your movement is fucked

SmileEachDay
Feminists didn’t invent PERF. As I said, some pages back, it was an exasperated response

Not true. The first recorded use of PERF was by a feminist claiming that label and proudly coming out as "Penis Exclusionary".

BasiliskStare no, I think you’ve got it about right! I think most people can recognise that identifying as feminist doesn’t mean ‘I make feminist decisions 100% of the time’, I don’t think it’s possible to be perfect. I think it’s enough to do the best you can while having an awareness of how your choice impacts other women, and having an awareness of the issues women face.

"If I adopted your label - I would constantly have to be clarifying what "kind" of WhatereverIST I am"

Would you? I don't. Or at least I only do when I am having a discussion about different sorts of feminist. You seem to be much more exercised about it than anyone else!

"My point is that you have allowed your movement to be defined by the batshit crazy wing "

Ah yes, this "batshit crazy wing" that nobody seems to be able to identify. Oh, apart from Linda Bellos and Witchwind. And, bizarrely, me. Mainstream, middle aged inoffensive, always polite me. But somehow also a batshit crazy extremist in my spare time.

Not true. The first recorded use of PERF was by a feminist claiming that label and proudly coming out as "Penis Exclusionary"

Nice selective quoting there Francis - PERF was an exasperated response to cries of TERF. If you can’t see that, then I don’t know how else I can explain it. It’s not that nuanced.

you have allowed your movement to be defined by the batshit crazy wing

Really? Can you explain this?

You've already pointed out (many times) that there are lots of complex threads to feminism. So when did one 'batshit' contingent gobble up all the others??

I will state again- when it's a binary choice, I will say "Yes, I'm a feminist."

Complex discussion might follow.

To bow out at the yes/no stage is piss poor if you have even the vaguest sympathy for women's rights.

I have every sympathy with, support for and would fight for the rights of equality of opportunity, fairness and justice. It's just that I don't want to be associated with you.

Bertrand - " And, bizarrely, me. Mainstream, middle aged, inoffensive, always polite me."

You see , I think that would describe me. ( and I have said above where perhaps today I may have made a different choice - although I have always kept my own name on e.g. bank accounts , passport etc and have never had a problem in the nuclear family having 2 last names )

There is ( and is this bad ?) only so much I can do - what I have tried to do , and I think I have had some success with , is bringing up DS in a way which does not just say feminism is equal pay etc , but it is a way of making sure women are absolutely respected , so if a chap tells you a rubbish joke about small feet under the kitchen sink , - that's not on. ( further badly explained posts from Basilisk are available. )

SmileEachDay
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3157347-PERF

When I first raised the question about PERF (the day after or day of first comimg across the term on MN) - not a single MN Feminist said "hang on that term is an exasperated expression....One poster called herself ProudPerf . Stop back pedalling.

Basilisk- raising the next generation of girls and boys is one of the most important tasks of today’s feminists. Sounds like you’re doing a good job!

Dear god.

The term PERF can't exist without it's precursor TERF.

TERF is used to vilify any women, feminist or man.

Sexist men who wouldn't touch feminism with a bargepole, get called TERF.

PERF was used to take the trans out of an argument about sex based protections for women.

Because it's not about trans, it's about men.

And not those men with a vagina.

If I said I was a Marxist but then went on to say I completely support unfettered free markets and the complete abolition of all regulations including workers rights and safety etc, wouldn't it be fair for someone to say hmm. That's not a great advertisement for Marxism.

I doubt they’d say that, francine. They’d probably say it sounds like you’re confused about what Marxism means.

Actually, I am rethinking the PERF thing- I misunderstood it before. I think I probably am one. I am certainly not a TERF. I have no problem at all with trans people. But I do not think functioning penises, whoever they are attached to, belong in women’s spaces.

When I first raised the question about PERF (the day after or day of first comimg across the term on MN) - not a single MN Feminist said "hang on that term is an exasperated expression....One poster called herself ProudPerf . Stop back pedalling.

You’re basing your knowledge of this term on a thread with16 replies, a few of which are your own. Mmmmkay.

I CLEARLY have no idea about where PERF came from and have no wider involvement in feminism.

The term PERF would not exist without the term TERF. The end.

Datun

Dear god.
The term PERF can't exist without it's precursor TERF.

And you bit, hook, line and sinker. Now you have yet another stupid phrase that you will constantly be having to justify, excuse, explain or blame.