Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

Relief I agree with you, I was using STEM programmes for women as an example - but I also think it’s much deeper than lack of opportunity.

Do you work in the UK? Why do you think there’s such a difference between home and overseas students?

I'm in Scotland, yes. I think there's a lot more economic (and family) pressure on our Chinese and Indian students. A Western Engineering degree is often a ticket out of poverty, so in a sense it's less of a free choice than our home students are making.

Could it be that, although equally capable in STEM subjects at school, when it comes to a choice of careers, more women gravitate towards more socially interactive, "human" jobs that require skills such as empathy and emotional intelligence? Maybe they feel STEM careers are comparatively one-dimensional?

“At our school....
So you are a teacher after all!!! I had guessed at lecturer in an FE college.”

“Our school” as in the school my ds went to and where I still volunteer. Sorry to disappoint Tom Sharpe fantasies.

The ratio is a lot higher in Chemistry and Biology. Think there might be a kind of critical mass point where being a woman doesn't automatically make you the odd one out in those fields.

I'm distrustful of the women are more emotionally intelligent / focused Damore arguements because there's much more variation within the group of 'men' or 'women' than there is between them and it just doesn't make sense to me to look at characteristics of 50% of the population as a class as if women are one monolithic block. Also why I've disagreed with pumper in the past about 'male' violence so depending on the context that view can either make me quite feminist or quite chauvinist.

So the op has an agenda around proving who is and isn’t a feminist and has not posted in honesty.

In that case, I’m out.

I’m not a feminist then because I believe that abortion should only be allowed up to whatever current limits are set by law and I do not agree that healthy babies that would be capable of surviving outside their mothers wombs should be allowed to be aborted and killed as part of that process.

Good to know.

Yes, the “women are more empathetic/hiuman centered” line would be more acceptable if it was not followed by a silent “so they are better suited to these less well paid jobs”

Also why I've disagreed with pumper in the past about 'male' violence so depending on the context that view can either make me quite feminist or quite chauvinist.

Where did we disagree on male violence? Is it the class arguement thing?

Not all "people" jobs are low paid though. For instance, there are far more equal numbers of male and female psychologists (with MSc qualifications) than say, structural engineers.

The ratio is a lot higher in Chemistry and Biology. Think there might be a kind of critical mass point where being a woman doesn't automatically make you the odd one out in those fields.

I’d love to know more about this - does that mean that there are equal men and women working in these subjects after university, outside of teaching?

No idea about final destinations. Just thinking that the majority tends to form the default culture, and however kind or thoughtful you are about that it's going to isolate people who don't feel that their part of that.

I suspect higher numbers in Biology and Chemistry are more to do with medicine being an obvious target when women were allowed to go to university. Being a trailblazing doctor is an identity that might let you stick out a rough and isolating experience far more than being a trailblazing system's analyst.

Thanks Relief. Yes, I think that’s probably all true too.

Pumper I’m trying to find links - I have some paper copies at work...

The wise website probably has some useful links and there was a Microsoft funded study that was interesting- essentially a lot of the research is around role models and the fact it’s essential to “get” girls when they are young - one of the watershed times is choice of A’levels and girls just not studying STEM subjects.

So...we have a perfect storm of socialisation, boys being given more “STEM” toys, society saying things like “boys are better at maths” and then girls seeing there aren’t so many top women to aspire to be like - this confirms what they are hearing about subject choices.

That’s why an element of female short listing might be helpful, because it addresses the role model issue directly AND it attempts to act as a counter balance to the socialisation of girls to not push forward, especially in male dominated forums.

I’ll keep looking for some online links.

Sorry Smile, just seen this. I’ll have a look at that website, thanks very much 👍

SmileEachDay

What do you think radical feminists are excluding penises from?

That's my whole point about how badly you are damaging the "brand" of feminism without thinking through the language you use. You're using an acronym "PERF" with the first two letters simply standing for Penis Exclusionary without any further clarity or specificity. You are arming your opponents with the very weapons they need to attack us with false accusations of wanting to be "Penis Exclusionary" anywhere and everywhere... so basically "man-haters" and "boy-haters"

I realise that this is not the intent of PERF.

But yet again you have painted yourselves into a corner of having to say "I didn't mean every penis. I didn't mean everywhere. No of course you will still be able to bring your 2 year old son into the women's changing room".

Both PERF and TERF are not the invention of radical feminists. They are expressions invented to discredit us. Why are you talking as if they are terms we have chosen to adopt?

Ah. I see we are both on the wrong thread.

No I don't think PERF was foisted upon feminists. I firat came across on MN where a feminist said she "was coming out ad a PERF". Several readers asked what it stood for because when you Google get something about Performance Analysis in Linux

You made this bed. Lie in it.

I think I’m more into equality and some of the more militant feminists scare me tbh. I also worry for the future of my son at times.

I am having trouble finding the specific thread where a MN proudly "came out" as a PERF. But here is the thread I started on the same day.

Notice not a single MN Feminist rejects the term as having been foisted upon them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3157347-PERF

But yet again you have painted yourselves into a corner of having to say "I didn't mean every penis. I didn't mean everywhere. No of course you will still be able to bring your 2 year old son into the women's changing room".

Francine I’m not really sure I understand your arguement - admittedly, I wouldn’t call myself a PERF so maybe not best places to have this conversation with you - are you saying that the trouble with PERF is that someone may be so literal that you’d have to then clarify exactly which penises you don’t want in a changing room? Is this your label arguement again, or are you taking issue with the fact that some feminists don’t want trans women in women-only spaces?

So if it was changed to Adult Penis Exclusionary Radical Feminist or APERF then that would solve your issue with it?

The PERF thing is such a red herring. It's been explained why it is being used, and yet funnily enough it still resembles a stick with which to beat feminists. (No pun intended).

Feminism isn't just some belief system. It's based on statistics and evidence.

If you're not interested in the statistics or evidence, then it will look like opinion.

If you are au fait with the statistics evidence, and how a specific topic has evolved then things like PERF make perfect sense.

Feminists might well have called themselves PERFS, but nonetheless, the concept was forced upon them, by making men and women interchangeable. You couldn't just say man, you had to say penis owner. Because some men have vaginas.

I don't think the majority of women who say they are feminists in recent years give a stuff about female equality.
None of my male friends judged me for being a SAHM for 3 years, my 'feminist' friends did though. Snide comments from being a "domestic slave to a man" to "Where has your ambition gone?".

I've been criticised over my appearance, the career I chose not being good enough, that I still cook for my OH after work (because I like to cook, not because "he expects it" ), judged on my clothes, my hair, over losing weight, over shaving... and all the judgments are coming from women.

I thought the principle of feminism meant that I theoretically have the freedom of choice. What to do, what to wear, where to work, and that my choices are a worthy of as much respect as the next woman, and the man stood next to her.

Except it's not, and it's largely women who voice their judgment that you aren't living like them.
It seems to be a case of, "Women can and should have it all", but, if what you have isn't what other people would do (or would choose for you), then you're letting the side down.

Maybe, just maybe, women are under-represented in STEM subjects because most women just don't want to study them?!
I find it infuriating, and ignoring the point when women stand up and say, "We need more women in STEM fields!" and when asked about the Degree they studied, they answer "Leisure and Tourism" or "Gender Studies" . So it's needed for everyone else, but not you?
If more women stopped studying for degrees they'll likely never use and chose a STEM subject themselves, women would be better represented in the tables.

Also, the body hair issue. It's been said on here ad infinitum, and I've heard a fair bit in RL too.
The majority of comments revolve around OH and his thoughts, not me funnily enough.
"It's the standards set in porn and men's magazines that makes you do that to yourself" and
"I find it creepy that your OH wants to have sex with someone who looks like a pre-pubescent girl"

Implying that as a woman, I don't make conscious decisions for my own fucking body, it's purely for the benefit of a man.
So am I a woman worthy of equal respect, and are my choices worthy of respect, or does every choice I make that doesn't match yours make me a subservient drone to the Patriarchy?

Somebody fell in love with me for saying this on the other thread. So I'll say it again here😊
If you broadly believe in equality, you must surely believe in taking actions to enable an oppressed group to achieve equality

I do believe in all of the above. I just don't see a need to label myself because "ist" labels mean you get associated with a movement.

I have neither the time or energy to be constantly explaining "Ooh no! Heaven forfend, I'm not that kind of "IST" I am a ...Fourth Wave, Inter-Sectionalist, Third Dan, Division 2, Gender Apprecitative, Performative; neo-Marxist, moderate Radical, triple Grande, sugar-free, vanilla no fom latte with Soy Milk and a cinnamon shot Feminist..

Everyone else is WRONG and a handmaiden