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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

606 replies

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 08:31

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

OP posts:
Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:26

Well, I’ve seen it said (when googling tonight)

I definitely disagree with you, Bertrand, over the “women as class”impact thing. That’s not meant to be fighty, just my opinion. I put myself and what’s right for me first and foremost.

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:29

I will always make the right decision for myself (if the two are in conflict) yes, so will most people. I will too, in most cases.

I beleive in equal rights for all. I don’t beleive in positive discrimination.

What does ‘equal rights for all’ mean to you? Earlier I posted that eg STEM subjects are predominantly male and caring industries are predominantly female. Is this equality?

I don’t agree with “we beleive you” and I don’t think all men are rapists or that PIV sex is always rape.

I agree with ‘we believe you’ - I think it’s important to believe people who say they’ve been attacked. Of course I do not think all men are rapists. Of course I do not think PIV sex is always rape.

Will we leave it there?

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:29

We beleive you undermines innocent until proven guilty.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:30

Equal rights re jobs and salaries for eg, the vote.

Positive discrimination for eg in parliamentary shortlist’s I disagree with.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:32

I find it interesting that when I’ve been engaging and participating and answering many questions put to me I’ve been told I’m looking for a fight.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 21:35

“Well, I’ve seen it said (when googling tonight)“

Who by? I’ve seen it said that women have smaller brains and are therefore less clever than men. But I know that was said by a person who wasn’t very good at thinking, so I don’t expect women who aren’t feminists to repeat that they don’t think that on a regular basis.

But feminists have to say that no, they don’t think all men are rapists about a million (slight exaggeration) times on every.single.thread.

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Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:39

I’ve explained already why I felt you were looking for a fight. You’ve not changed my mind with ‘I don’t think all men are rapists and PIV sex is always rape’ nonsense.

I find it interest that you still have not acknowledged my definition of feminism or answered question about STEM subjects being considered male and caring industries being considered female. I find it interesting that you’ve immediately gone to absolute extremes while trying to cause friction, without acknowledging the very measured views on this thread.

It’s a shame, because I was genuinely interested in hearing your views. I would have loved to hear about how you found your own brand of feminism. But I’m getting the impression you’re more looking to cause a bit of friction.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 21:39

“ I’ve been told I’m looking for a fight.”

I didn’t want to give my definition of feminism and said why. You persisted until I did, then said you didn’t agree. Forcefully. “Fuck that,” were your word, I think. That did seem a bit fighty, to be honest!

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Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:42

Fuck that was forceful - I won’t put an amorphous women as a group before my own interests.

I don’t care about women in or not in stem, in as much as if women want to go into stem then knock themselves out. I do see issues with lower wages / less esteem in caring roles and I would like to see that change.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:43

I’m trying to answer questions -I’m on my phone, I’m also trying to google and read up on feminism and I feel rather hounded and tagged teamed right now.

Datun · 10/02/2018 21:46

dancing

But that's not the conversation that happens over there, is it? it's all about painting TMs as nutters and perverts. It a hostile place that strays into phobic language and discourse far too often.

They don't paint them as nutters and perverts in the way you are describing. Autogynephilia is a fetish. That's part of it. The term transwomen officially includes cross dressing fetishists.

It's not wrong to talk about that.

It's also not wrong to see cross dressing fetishists insisting they have a lady penis, to which lesbians should be attracted, as delusional.

I suspect it's a numbers thing. That most people think that the people I'm speaking of are rare.

In which case, I can see a disconnect.

But they aren't rare. They are driving the agenda. That's the problem.

Which is why transwomen are finding their way to these threads, to add their voice to ours, and say not in our name. The schism in the community is making them want to speak up.

They actually joke that they have an invisibility cloak. Because as soon as they speak, they are studiously ignored, by those who call the threads transphobic.

The other thing to bear in mind is that many of these women are at the coalface of talking about this and have suffered from rape threats, abuse, doxxing, having their employers called. Censorship.

They're pissed off. But not with men who have gender dysphoria. With transactivism, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Feminists are analysts. Not bigots

So does that mean you DO speak for ALL feminists everywhere?

Well, since anyone can call themselves a feminist, even men who think that being 'treated like a piece of meat' is hot and street harassment is empowering, that's a bit of a moot question.

There is a quite interesting thread on the feminist board at the moment about liberal feminism and radical feminism.

And the difference between the two.

Some feminists believe that a woman's decision, whatever it is, must be a feminist one because it's being made by a woman. And it's a choice she makes.

But where do you draw the line? Does the woman who has to sell her kidney to provide food for her children have a real choice?

Is prostitution a real choice? Because it provides an income and therefore the commodification of the woman's body is a well thought out process. Or is her choice between prostitution and starvation. In which case how much of a choice is that?

And again, it's probably down to numbers. If you believe that the majority of women choose prostitution as a career and are happy with it, your disconnect will arise when other people claim that the majority of prostitutes want to exit the profession because it's degrading/they're addicts/trafficked, but they have no choice.

All I would ever say is to read. And then make up your mind.

If someone disagrees with what I say, and is happy to provide a reason that means something to them. Then I will readily disengage. No hard feelings.

Can't make people believe what you believe.

I generally only engage if I think somebody really doesn't know. It's quite difficult to do that without sounding up yourself.

But I try nonetheless.

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:46

I’m on my phone too. But I won’t address you any more, I think we’ve probably taken this conversation as far as it can go if you’re not willing to answer questions and are instead trying to belittle my beliefs when I’ve been nothing but polite to you, and have at least tried to see your point of view. So let’s leave it there.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:48

I’ve been polite. (Apart from fuck that - which I’m not sorry for)

You’ve picked at me over and over.

I have answered your questions.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 21:50

“I’m trying to answer questions -I’m on my phone, I’m also trying to google and read up on feminism and I feel rather hounded and tagged teamed right now.”

Oh, come on!!!!!!!!!!!

Fair enough. I’ll stop responding to you. But if you don’t want people to engage then don’t address them by name.

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Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:51

I’ve been answering questions.

But whatever.

Let me ask. Do any of you on this thread have a view as to whether you consider me a feminist or not?

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:51

I addressed your point (a definition of feminism) when you complained no one else had.

I don’t see how implying I think all men are rapists is polite. Or how saying ‘I don’t care about women in STEM’ when I used it as an example is polite. I wouldn’t have addressed you nearly as much if you’d been this honest at the beginning of our conversation.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:54

I don’t see why women in stem is an issue. If women want to go into stem (in the Uk - I have no knowledge of why or wherefor of any other country) then they can.

That’s not me being impolite. It’s my opinion.

I said I agreed re men in caring roles and I expanded to say lower wages and I see that is an issue. I note you didn’t point that out.

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:57

Ok, let’s address this then:

I do see issues with lower wages / less esteem in caring roles and I would like to see that change.

What does that mean in relation to my question ‘why are caring industries predominantly female and how is that equality?’

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 22:01

I don’t understand your question. Can you please expand or explain. I have already said I’m stupid and I don’t want not to answer but I need some more information to help me understand what you are asking

SmileEachDay · 10/02/2018 22:03

Let me ask. Do any of you on this thread have a view as to whether you consider me a feminist or not?

You feel hounded.

So don’t ask questions.

How would anyone know if you’re a feminist? You could be a hairy handed Canadian trucker. Or a chicken farmer from Ohio. Or a surrended Wife. Or a teenage boy. Or anything.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 22:03

True smile. I could be. I’m not. But I could be. So could anyone else.

SmileEachDay · 10/02/2018 22:06
Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 22:07

I googled surrendered wife. Definitely not one of those. Grin

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 22:12

My question is - why do you think boys are more likely to choose STEM while girls are more likely to choose a caring role? If you think feminism should be about ‘equal rights for all’ then how do you readdress this balance without targeting one sex over the other?

You can hold an arguement and you can spell. You obviously have views on this topic, you are interested enough to research it, you’re obviously capeable of critical thought. I don’t want this to sound patronising but I don’t think you’re stupid. You can call yourself what you like but I would’ve have thought it’s a very positive (or accurate) way to think of yourself. But whatever, you can decide yourself how you want to define yourself.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 22:17

What do you mean by targeting?

(I can’t spell - I rely on spellcheck - it’s one of the main reasons I use my phone)

My view would be that at school boys and girls should have equal access to all subjects (as they do at my DD school - and she does stem subjects and the classes are pretty equal as far as I am aware) and that the balance will redress through time.

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