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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

606 replies

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 08:31

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 10/02/2018 20:51

Sorry pumper, it was veiled wasn't it, I'm a bit off colour today.

I was making perhaps an unrelated point and using you as an example I think; my point being that I think some women have previously identified as feminists but now reject that label due to their experiences with other feminists. And not just the "seeing them on TV" type experiences but the "hello feminists, I'm a feminist too", "you think X/y/z? Call yourself a feminist??" experiences.

But that's probably my own personal axe to grind and didn't work in the context of the discussion. As you were!

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 20:51

Bluedoglead I don’t think that definition is so different from mine, although I try not to use the word ‘equality’ because (as I’ve said on this thread already) I think it’s too open to interpretation as ‘everyone being treated exactly the same’ and I think that’s different from ‘fairness’.

What bits of feminism dont apply to you? I think unless you’re totally against massive issues that affect only women then few people would argue with you identifying as feminist.

SmileEachDay · 10/02/2018 20:53

I didn’t take the OP as “faux innocent” - I think open analysis and debate is really important. If I’m going to say I’m a radical feminist, i have to consider the reasons why I wouldn’t be. Partly to check my own values, partly to check that my values rationally counter things I might emotionally disagree with.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 20:54

I thought we were talking about feminism? Yes, I started a couple of trans threads. One of them was quite interesting. Neither of them left me any wiser.

OP posts:
Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 20:55

Well, Bertrand, what definition of feminism do you use?

DreamyMcDreamy · 10/02/2018 20:56

I already have said why on the other thread, and so have others.
Why ask again? Have a look through the other thread and you'll see why.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 20:56

“Two threads which start with the same kind of faux innocent questioning that’s actually all about telling anyone who does not agree with you that they’re wrong.”

I haven’t told anyone they are wrong. I have said I disagreed, and not changed my views when others think I should. But that is rather different.

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Original poster
BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 21:01

For me, a feminist is someone who thinks women should have full equality in the workplace and in society in general. Who thinks whether any action is likely to make things better or worse for women as a whole and tries to act accordingly.

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FrancinePefko · 10/02/2018 21:04

SuburbanRhonda
Why does any woman have to be an advert for feminism? Like all of us, the OP is an individual and if she has some opinions you disagree with, that’s fine. It doesn’t invalidate decades of feminism

Because that is the price of declaring yourself to have allegiance with a particular movement (a WhateverIST). The minute you give yourself a label you are quite rightly going to held up by others to the collective perception of that very label.

If I said I was a Marxist but then went on to say I completely support unfettered free markets and the complete abolition of all regulations including workers rights and safety etc, wouldn't it be fair for someone to say Hmm. That's not a great advertisement for Marxism.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:06

So, I can’t do something that’s right for me as an individual, I have to think of women as a whole?

Fuck that.

SmileEachDay · 10/02/2018 21:11

Blue

Fuck that? Why? You’re part of the class “women” - do things that are good for women will be good for you.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:12

Not on an individual level all the time smile.

I’m always going to put myself over some amorphous (so?) women as a group.

FrancinePefko · 10/02/2018 21:14

BertrandRussell
Yes, I started a couple of trans threads. One of them was quite interesting. Neither of them left me any wiser

You could not BE any wiser, Bertrand. Your wisdom is already deeper than the deepeat ocean, higher than the highest mountain. Verily I say unto you - your feminist wisdom surpasses the moon and the stars.

If you no-one who ever disagrees with you could ever make you "any wiser" - why do you keep starting threads like this one?

SmileEachDay · 10/02/2018 21:14

I can’t think of an example where I would fight for something that benefitted women that wouldn’t benefit me - I’m not being “faux innocent” I just can’t!

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:14

So, I can’t do something that’s right for me as an individual, I have to think of women as a whole?

Bluedoglead it really does seem like you’re looking for a fight now.

No, that’s not it. You can do what suits you as an individual but have an awareness of how your actions affect other women. The non-ethical porn is a good example of this.

NovemberWitch · 10/02/2018 21:15

But what if you are a second wave feminist who finds much about third wave a very uncomfortable fit? Is that RetroFeminism or just out of date?

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:15

That was supposed to be sp not so. I’m not sure how to spell amorphous.

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:16

I don’t and never ave watched porn. It is massively exploitative.

Not looking for a fight. Just trying to understand where I sit in feminism.

And the assertion that I must be looking for a fight because I’m not following the MN collective mind really says it all for me.

NovemberWitch · 10/02/2018 21:18

Me neither Bluedog.

SmileEachDay · 10/02/2018 21:18

You spell it like that Blue :)

I don’t think Pumper thought you weren’t fighty because of going against the —imaginary— hive mind- more that your phrasing was a bit...well...fighty? 😂

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:19

And I can spell have. I’m not trying to be down wif da kids.

Pumperthepumper · 10/02/2018 21:20

You’re looking for a fight because you needled Bertram for a definition then immediately took issue with it. You also have ignored my questions several times because it was more important that you had a go at Bertram for her definition.

I wasn’t suggesting you watched porn. Porn has come up several times on this thread and I was using it as an example.

I have absolutely no idea what the collective mind of mumsnet has to do with your idea of feminism because you haven’t said which bits you agree with or which bits you don’t. I think this is probably as far as we can take any discussion, don’t you?

Bluedoglead · 10/02/2018 21:22

I’ve given my opinion on the definition that says I have to think of the group woman for every decision I make I simply do not and will not do that. I will always make the right decision for myself (if the two are in conflict)

I beleive in equal rights for all. I don’t beleive in positive discrimination. I don’t agree with “we beleive you” and I don’t think all men are rapists or that PIV sex is always rape.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 21:23

Francine on the trans threads I asked a very specific question that I really want an answer to and nobody was able to give me one. It’s something I still don’t understand.

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Original poster
BertrandRussell · 10/02/2018 21:25

“ I don’t think all men are rapists or that PIV sex is always rape“

I don’t think anyone does, do they?

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