'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

@ Theftbyfinding and what if the person you are referring to has been born in Britain and is British?

zsazsajuju - haha yes it's definitely entertaining and varied...frustrating too though!!

@Messyone please clarify?

@ theftbyfinding
"Here's a radical idea! If you loathe the idea of the opposite sex touching you, why not fuck off back to whence you came?!"

I’m Muslim and I don’t mind shaking hands, although I rarely need to do it...strangely it’s always male doctors who shake hands with me. I hate sweaty hands so I might use my religion as an excuse to get out of shaking hands 🤔. Thanks for the idea op!

This is likely going to sound like I’m making excuses or not understanding why the OP was upset, so I’ll preface my comment with a big YES religion and misogyny often go hand in hand and YES in a workplace interaction where there is a cultural expectation of shaking hands to deliberately refuse to shake a woman’s hand in the name of religion is bullshit.

But (please indulge me for a minute) I grew up within a broad Jewish community and as teens many of my friends chose to become shomer negiah (literally guarding touch). This meant that there was no physical contact at all between males and females beyond utilitarian or necessary touch. So health professionals didn’t count because their role took them outside of the binary - at least while working in that capacity.

There is a very long tradition and much literature (please don’t think of Judaism as being about the Old Testament. Not only do we reject a designation of a sacred text as ‘old’ which implies that it’s been replaced by new, our cultural heritage includes 2000 years of written arguments about pretty much everything, and there are many different Jewish sub-groups that hold different values and texts and opinions on everything) about the concept of touch as being powerful.

Many people who are respectful and engaged with the outside world choose to avoid calling attention to the fact that they would prefer not to touch an individual of the opposite sex by either not touching anyone at all (no handshaking because they don’t want to only shake hands with half the people) or use the professional clause to allow business etiquette to override their custom (not law but close to it) of not touching people of the opposite sex.

Having said the above there has been a shift to the right in many religious groups and with that comes more younger people looking for ways to ‘do’ religion better than others. And with the weight of the patriarchy behind them well, umm.

But I felt empowered when I made the decision to reduce physical interactions with men and I don’t want to see the space for people to make those choices disappear. Luckily for everyone else my wants aren’t terribly important to the rest of the world.

I am going to type something I dont belive because of the current climate....I mean that I can not say what I want without cencure...

@theftbyfinding what about British born people who hate being touched? Where should they fuck off to?

Intention is everything otherwise there can be no accident.

Everything to do with ethics can be boiled down to intention. It's intention that trumps outcome.

Do Muslim men claim to not touch women other than their wife and close female family because they believe this practice shows respect for women?

As expected the modern arsehole has gone nuts;

some of my female colleagues who practice Islam will not shake hands with men are they being sexist?

Why is it that woman can refuse to shake hands with men but if men refuse to they are looking down at woman etc? double standards much?

Worrid - that's not what is being argued...if someone doesn't want to shake hands/embrace/talk to someone then fine but they must apply that rule across the board in order to practice fairness and equalty

@theftbyfinding what about British born people who hate being touched? Where should they fuck off to?

I expect theft doesn’t want them to fuck off because, you know, like, they’re alright? It’s only the brown ones or the ones who look different who should fuck off.

@HateSummer

Yep that’s probably what theft meant by their ‘democratic life’.

@theftbyfinding

As expected the modern arsehole has gone nuts;
Does that include you by any chance?

I wonder how much sexist behaviour by white non muslim men happens every day in your workplace but just gets ignored/swept under carpet/not even noticed.

You carry on being deluded if you like. You fools.

Seriously, why on earth would you be upset about this? It has nothing at all to do with you personally, he wasn't being sexist - he was observing his own religious beliefs.

I've had plenty of meetings with clients where at the end they've shook hands with my colleague and chatted to me before we left. I've never felt the slightest bit offended as I did not feel that my feminist opinions trumped someone else's religious belief.

Mugs

some of my female colleagues who practice Islam will not shake hands with men are they being sexist?

yes they are. But they don't need to compromise their beliefs in any way. A simple solution for them would be to not shake hands with anyone - male or female.

Amazing how difficult this simple solution seems to be. Almost like people want to make a point when choosing whom they shake hands with.

Asimple- not much in my workplace I can assure you...! Equally I'm not sure why you are now focusing on white non Muslims? I can recall two incidents of challenging blatent sexism from BME non muslim males within the last month alone. This is not an issue applicable to a single skin colour, background or religion. Whilst it tends to be males perceived to have wronged females, this also works the other way...its basically just an on going issue in general!!

Do you want to discuss equality?

Why is everyone so desperate to shake hands? 🙄...I bet this would be a complete non-issue if it wasn’t a Muslim who’d done this.

And this is still making me laugh:

IsThisMeToo

I met a Muslim woman once. 😂😂😂
Wow, what do you want? A badge?!

Censorship happens, it's the death of debate. The scope of what is "morally" acceptable is narrowed but this is a dynamic process that occurs through debate! Of course it could be argued by the liberal majority that modern belief, behaviour, values and ideas are more equal, that all positions are equal, that each individual is equal, except for those outside of this liberal system. It necessarily excludes others. This is why religious practices are seen to have no place in society. All religions are equal, your free to believe or not, but your religious views can not be respected when other special groups with protected characteristics start shouting about inequality.

I'm not a liberal. And neither do I believe that all men of religion refuse to shake hands with women because they are intentionally misogynist.