To not understand this? *trans related*

[NomsQualityStreets]

I don't want this to be a TAAT but my post was triggered about something I read today about someone being a "woman with a penis" generally threads I've been reading about stores amending their changing room policies and more.

I'm not versed enough on the subject and I don't understand how that can pass?? Please excuse my questioning but I'm very new to the discussion and would like someone to clarify this for me.

Surely if you're a biological man who feels he is a woman and wants to be acknowledged as a woman and is truly committed to it you have a sex change? - and you shouldn't be allowed into female spaces until you've undergone that?
How can you possibly expect to be treated like a woman AND keep your male genitals?

Again sorry if this offends anyone but I'm just quite confused.

Trans rights activism is a toxic, mysogenistic ideology and has been likened to a cult.

It encourages the repetition of mantras ("transwomen are women")

It actively stifles debate (aggressively shutting down event organised by women to discuss this issue, and no platforming anyone who dares to disagree with them)

TRAs support transomen no matter what they have done. A transwoman turned up at rape survivor's book launch this wee) Rose McGowan who outed Harvey Weinstein as a sexual predator) and screamed at her that she was excluding transwomen by not making her own book about transwomen. Why the fuck should she?

Then when it later emerged that the transwoman had been accused multiple times on twitter of abusing girls as young as 12 or 13, nd has social media accounts glorifying paedophilia and admitting he "dated" young teens, the TRAs didn't back down, they STILL hounded Rose, and called people out for calling this paedophile he not she.

It's properly twisted.

This is just some of the shit THIS WEEK:
See for yourself: twitter.com/rosiepolkadotz/status/960591473413705733

RatRolyPoly upthread you wrote about how no one should ever be forced into surgery they don't want, including gender reassignment.

I haven't seen anyone here say otherwise. You're twisting the point people are trying to make

Feminists aren't saying 'if you're claiming to be a woman you have to have your penis removed.'

They're saying two completely different things. a) It's of huge concern that so many young people are hurtling towards sterilising and mutilating themselves because of peer pressure, particularly women when they will completely lose their chance of ever procreating (men can at least store their sperm). This is of huge concern.

And b) if you're a man, claiming you're a woman and wanting to have access to female space, why should you be allowed to if you have a penis, when penises are generally what are used to rape women? That's not remotely the same as saying TIM's should have bottom surgery. It's more a question of access into our safe spaces. If most TIM's keep their penises then surely logic dictates that they are in no way, shape or form women and should respect sex segregation. Why should they get to bend the rules and put women at risk?

You have compared gender reassignment to surgery for chronic pain. The two differ wildly. I have lived with chronic pain since I was a child. It affects nobody else what i do im terms of treatment. I'm not potentially going to invade anyone's safe space whether or not I have surgery. I'm not going to traumatise or frighten anyone. It has a minor impact on my family, if say, I refuse treatment which might help, given they provide care for me but they could choose to step back more and leave me to rely on paid carers if needs be. The point is surgery for chronic pain really affects nothing and no-one beyond the sufferer, at least when it comes to them posing a risk to anyone. It is such a vastly different subject to men wanting the privilege and protections women so desperately need.

Did you see in America that the shop Target introduced gender neutral changing rooms? Have you read about the impact that has had out of interest? This isn't a neutral issye where no harm is done.

Thanks roly, it was an interesting read.

The real travesty here is that no serious data collection is actually happening...because even collecting the data appears to be transphobic now.

The moment studies in universities start getting shut down in case they find something people don't want to acknowledge, you know there is a real problem.

sundaymorningatwork, that's a vile slur, you should be ashamed.

Havn't rtft yet, got this far and have to say, my ex had autogenophilia, and although I'm not sure if he ever assaulted anyone but me, I know that if he was allowed to try on bras in an m+s changing room, he'd be 99% sure to cream himself (ejaculate), in the process. When he dressed like a woman, or even thought about passing as a woman, he got ridiculously horny. People aren't taking in just how sexually motivated some of these cross dressers "transwomen" are.

I read something written by a male pp on another thread, along the lines of "of course woman presenting as males (masculine or ugly women), are still considered women, even though their gender and sex don't match."

Wtf? The implication is a skinny, toned, "feminine" looking 17 year old boy, wearing lingerie and nice makeup, with intact balls and penis, can be considered more of a woman, than a now fat, dowdy 50 year old mother of four, grandmother of six?

It is unconscionable that penises - a body part used by men to oppress women via rape - is allowed into women's spaces.

It is not what is between our ears that has made men want to oppress and own and hurt us, it is our vaginas they want to rape, our wombs they want to control and our lesser physical strength that makes it possible.

"Stats are meaningless in the face of women's real lived experiences. Men don't belong in women's spaces and transwomen are a subset of men not women. They are male and always will be male regardless of what they feel like in their head. They should be campaigning for gender neutral spaces not trying to muscle in on spaces where women feel vulnerable in order to validate their own perception of themselves."

^This. They're feminine men. Not women. They have naturally higher testosterone levels, which makes them bigger, and naturally more agressive, and have higher sex drives, which makes them more dangerous to females. They have naturally different hormones, and reproductive capabilities. The "lady brain" concept is a crock of shit. Trauma and the effects of stress etc, to the brain are not. I'm sure being feminine and drawn to stereotypical feminine things, is hard. Being different is hard. Being the "real you" is hard. But these are all differences in personality, not biology. No one wants men mutilating themselves, to feel "right" or accepted. The suicide figures are very worrying. For each of those men are friends and family, who lost someone they love.

Feminine men can't keep hiding in the ladies loos, because they're afraid of other men. They need to stand up to other males, who're throwing them out of the male spaces they're entitled to use. Why was Andi Dier shouting at a woman, for males crimes? Why didn't he go to a mens prison, and try to talk to the men who assaulted, raped and kill transwomen? Instead of shouting at a fellow victim? Because he's a pedophile with his own agenda

But do you know what proportion of those sexual crimes are against women? As opposed to against other men for example, or indeed against children, or that don't invlove and present victim at all - e.g. pornographic material-related crimes, or revenge porn?[...] I'd also be interested to know if anyone can say, of the sexual crimes against women, how many are against a partner? Or another known person - a friend or a colleague? Or are related to prostitution? Because I don't think it's fair to include those stats when attempting to show how sexual offences by men are somehow likely to occur in public bathrooms against women, were they to be mixed gender spaces.

Sorry for the massive quote, but this attitude is grim. Everything you've listed involves the deliberate assault and/or humiliation of a person who is physically weaker than the perpetrator, or who is, for other reasons, unable to protect themselves.

Whether the perpetrator assaults women, men, or children, they''re forcing themselves on someone because they had the inclination, the opportunity, and the physical capacity.

Whether they assault partners, friends or strangers - the same.

Adult consensual porn isn't illegal, so I imagine pornographic-related-materials convictions relate to possessing images of a violent/non-consensual nature. Revenge porn is the intent to humiliate and demean a partner, again because the perpetrator has the inclination and the opportunity.

Exposing yourself to, harassing and sexually assaulting women in enclosed-but-public spaces (such as toilets and changing rooms) is not in some entirely discrete category of crime. It's like saying 'date rape isn't as bad as being attacked in a dark alleyway by a stranger'. There's a huge crossover amongst all kinds of sexual crimes: inclination (to force yourself upon, assault, scare or humiliate someone), physical capacity (choosing someone who is unable or unlikely to effectively fight you off or hurt you), and opportunity (being in an isolated space together).

Single-sex facilities are about removing or reducing the opportunity. I don't live in a constant state of anxiety about being assaulted - but I'm not in denial, either, and would have no sense of safety being in an isolated or vulnerable setting with the perpetrator of any crimes which demonstrate a desire to hurt, sexually assault or humiliate. These people aren't easily identifiable, but they're invariably male, which is why single sex facilities are a relief to many women.

Insinuating that our fears should be dialled down because, hey, a lot of those sex-offenders actually raped their partners, which is totally different from assaulting strangers, is not going to change anyone's mind. Nor should it: because it's shite.

Oh its just ridiculous 'I do believe in fairies/ladybrain, I do I do' woo woo nonsense.

No woman has a penis. No male is a lesbian. People do not have a genital fetish because they are heterosexual or homosexual.

People with penises are different to people with vulvas. It is biology. Yes intersex people exist, but they are tied of being brought up in religious iscussions about gender, and their existence does not prove that there are more thsn 2 sexes in human beings.

I am sick of being told that biology is bigotry or that recognising biological sex is literally killing a bunch of purple haired male lesbians on twitter.

Thank you for saying that AprilW

The last person I want in my changing room is a man who wanks over women being degraded and demeaned in porn.

I don't care if he is a mouse of a man.

Attempting to quantify the exact circumstances under which a woman might feel negative on a spectrum from discomfort to terror, and then demanding the likelihood, chances and examples, is a wholesale denial of women's actual experience.

And I for one, am absolutely sick of it.

I admit I don't know huge amounts about this issues. I also don't think I can begin to understand how a transperson might feel.
I very much believe that people should have the right to live as they choose (so long as it causes no harm to others) and I am not prejudiced against Lgbt etc.

What I do know, is that I do not want to get naked in a changing room in front of someone with a penis, even if that penis is owned by someone who considers themself to be female.

I just never understood why trans people put so much emphasis on makeup and attempting to look like barbie dolls. Most trans women look more “womanly” than women, which I find to be problematic for standards. It’s like saying that’s how women should be.

Nothing against trans people btw, I just really think it’s done in a way that makes women feel like they’re not doing it right. Maybe because they’re doing it better, or maybe because I feel trans women are not a proper portrayal of actual women and mostly enjoy playing dress-up

Let me reiterate I have no issues with how people want to live, just that trans portrayal of women is super warped

Also I find it strange that trans women (so ex-men) are being placed in places of power and women are being congratulated for something men have done. Whereas trans men (so ex-women) are having babies and it’s all YAY GOOD JOB.

I mean nothing has changed. It’s backwards.

Women couldn’t possibly misuse a law for their own gratification? No? Do you not consider that both sexes have individuals who will manipulate and use laws in place for reasons other than genuine?

Funnily enough in the current GRA legislation, pretty much the only way women could seriously benefit from identifying as a man, is an exception. Primogeniture. So it seems transwomen are women, but transmen are not quite men. Not where there is something women could take away from men, anyway.

Yes, I guess women could misuse this for their own sexual gratification. But its extremely more likely to be men who do this.

Gosh that India Willoughby Interview is something else.

S'he' so clearly sides with men and has misogynistic views, can't believe she is complaining that men have had a hard year this year.

WTF is that all about is it a reference to Harvey Weinstein? Unbelievable.

taratill India Willoughby's view are pretty mild for a trans rights activist tbh. She seemed to concede that there are issues with transwomen in sport - if I as a woman said that in earshot of a TRA I'd likely be called transphobic and a TERF.

Also IIIRC Willoughby's had the OP? She's not going around telling lesbians they're not real lesbians / "vagina festishists" if they don't accept her ladydick.

Lesbians are being valled bigots - and not actual lesbians, unlike those "real ones" that used to be men - because they don't want to sleep with people with penises.

It's hugely regressive but pretending to be progressive.

And bloody hell, why does everyone keep linking from that one single biased website? Can we have an original source here please people!

Just because you don't like the stats collated by fairplayforwomen.com, that doesn't make it a biased source. Those figures were later confirmed by the ministry for justice, if anything it's underestimated slightly. There was an article in the Times about it.

Was it this one? And the source was named in this. I be he is biased too though and just a big old TERF despite being president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/number-of-transgender-prisoners-rises-by-80-7stz2bfvl

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The number of transgender prisoners in English and Welsh jails has risen almost 80% in a year, official figures published by the Ministry of Justice revealed last week.

They show the transgender prisoner population has increased from 70 in March-April 2016 to 125 by the same time this year.

The figure is likely to understate the true number of transgender inmates because it does not include offenders who have been through the two-year process to gain a gender recognition certificate (GRC), official acknowledgment that they have changed gender. These inmates are mostly housed in prisons of their chosen gender.

The figures are not broken down by offence but James Barrett, a consultant at Charing Cross Hospital who is president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists, said he had been told by the Prison Service that “about half” of transgender prisoners were sex offenders.

----

Relevant bit. President of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists' has been told by the prison service that it is about half.

So much for the 'biased' stats from fairplay eh.

The real travesty here is that no serious data collection is actually happening...because even collecting the data appears to be transphobic now.

Indeed. Its ridiculous that its so hard to get stats, and that near all studies are denounced as transphobic and blocked. the more people understand about it all, the better. For transsexual people too (who tend to distance themselves from the 'transgender' crowd anyway)

Thank you OnTheList, that was the one.

Transwomen should create there own category which they can truly identify with and stop pretending to be a "real" woman. I have no problem with people who are transgender, however, cannot comprehend how they know exactly what it feels like to be a genuine woman ( having experienced puberty, periods, pregnancy, childbirth, etc,). Anyone can identify as whatever gender they prefer. Possibly tomorrow I may decide to become a transman (ex-woman) but even so I won't truly know what it actually feels like to be a "real" man. I'd be a man with a vagina that bleeds with female hormones. How does this make me a true man!

To put very simply OP, a woman with a penis is either a man or transwoman but certainly not a woman.

I initially thought a solution would be for a cultural shift away from masculine and feminine. That those words, types, ideologies, concepts etc were non existent. But male = with XY chromosome and a penis
Female = with XX chromosome and a vagina
Either can have sex with either, wear what they like, etc etc. But I think it’s more complicated than eradicating the social construct of femininity/masculinity etc. Unfortunately!!
I don’t want males taking positions set aside for females (stem places at uni, managerial & board positions, etc etc). I don’t want males in female sports teams or competing against females. I don’t want males representing females (women’s officer etc). All this is about validation and the ones that seem set on this validation seem very misogynistic and entitled to me. They certainly don’t seem to be about equality or women’s rights. Those that are I could validate.

Just wondering how many FTM trans are demanding gay men accept them and their Manfanjos

I'd guess at - none? Because women don't have a history of forcing their genitals on men. Their "male brains" aren't anywhere near as male as they think they are.

But I have no plans to go to bed with one, so I figure it really isn't my problem. And I like it when things are not my problem.

geekymommy if you went on twitter and said that, you would be sent rape and death threats for your terrible, terrible transphobia. Refusing to say that you would consider a transwoman as a sexual partner is a violent act, we are told.

What really pisses me off about this is that women have ALWAYS been told "you need to like dick, and specifically my dick" from men across the ages, but now women are being cast as the oppressors and men as the victims when women say "no, I don't like your dick at all, fuck off".

India Willoughby ‘men have had a tough year’ ffs!!!! Such a misogynist statement! Of course he doesn’t get it though as he’s been a bloke until recently. I wouldn’t begin to think I understand a male perspective so why should he think he can argue a female perspective. He has a male perspective and a trans persoective but definitely not a females. I’m livid!! The woman’s aid lady did well but was cut off from the statistic if 138 murders of women this year by males.

India has such an agenda. It's absolutely obvious.

How else do you account of the fact that she gleefully asserted that there are as many transwomen in prison for sexual crimes as there are women?

I was going demented because no one said yes, but you are pulling from a pool of 35 million women and a few hundred thousand transwomen, you disingenuous, statistic skewing, bellend.