To not understand this? *trans related*

[NomsQualityStreets]

I don't want this to be a TAAT but my post was triggered about something I read today about someone being a "woman with a penis" generally threads I've been reading about stores amending their changing room policies and more.

I'm not versed enough on the subject and I don't understand how that can pass?? Please excuse my questioning but I'm very new to the discussion and would like someone to clarify this for me.

Surely if you're a biological man who feels he is a woman and wants to be acknowledged as a woman and is truly committed to it you have a sex change? - and you shouldn't be allowed into female spaces until you've undergone that?
How can you possibly expect to be treated like a woman AND keep your male genitals?

Again sorry if this offends anyone but I'm just quite confused.

There's a big difference between not having gender reassignment surgery for practical or health-based reasons, and not having gender reassignment surgery because you're arrogant and entitled enough to claim that the definition of woman (and women's spaces, rights, events and dialogues) should change to accommodate you. Not just accommodate - they should prioritise you and your feelings, and, if they don't, it's a form of violence. And it's this latter, dogmatic mindset which is becoming mainstream, and it's causing serious problems for many women: harrassment, threats, assaults, professional losses.

thank you to the poster who posted the link to magdalene berns YouTube!

I've thoroughly enjoyed watching her videos tonight!

Geekmommy - if you are a woman, or know any women, then this really is your problem.

Why? I have never been assaulted by a trans woman in a bathroom or any other female-only space. Most of them just want to do the same things in the bathroom as we do- you know, hide from their boss or kids for a few minutes, look at stuff on their phones.
Keeping trans women out of female only spaces won’t prevent sexual assault in those spaces. Women can and do sexually assault women. Plus, people who sexually assault others aren’t known for following rules.

geekymummy

Most of them might want to do the same as us, but some of them don’t should women put up with higher rates of assault to appease transwomen?

Credit: CapnHaddock who posted this the other day.

geekymommy

According to your logic, as I've never been assaulted by a man in a bathroom or any other female-only space, there is no good reason to exclude any men from such spaces.

If you don't agree with allowing all men in, can you explain why.

*I don't want this to be a TAAT but my post was triggered about something I read today about someone being a "woman with a penis" generally threads I've been reading about stores amending their changing room policies and more.

I'm not versed enough on the subject and I don't understand how that can pass?? Please excuse my questioning but I'm very new to the discussion and would like someone to clarify this for me.*

Yes, the whole thing is incredibly confusing.
There is no such thing as a woman with a penis, that's just not possible. It would be:

• a man with a penis who wants to be a woman.
• a trans woman which is a person who has had their penis/testicles cut off and has undergone hormone therapy but who does not have biological female anatomy.
• a woman which is a person who has no penis and has biological female anatomy.

As such I have no issue with a woman or a trans-woman using women changing rooms, shelters etc. I have an issue with a man with a penis who wants to be a woman using women changing rooms, shelters etc. Way too much potential for abuse and something to go wrong.

There are different sorts of transpeople:

Transmen - typically attracted to other biological females, increasing numbers are now identifying as transmen rather than lesbian. The 'treatment' pathway is testosterone & double mastectomy

E.g., www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/16/this-trans-mans-tweet-about-his-top-surgery-is-going-viral-for-all-the-right-reasons/ this lesbian woman became a 'transman' after studying gender studies at uni. Within a year she had transitioned and developed 'rapid-onset gender dysphoria' had irreversible surgery.

This is another one: www.mediadrumworld.com/2018/01/29/21442/ Identical twin sister is a lesbian, but she 'transitioned' to become a 'transman' and is now in a 'heterosexual' relationship with a woman.

Homosexual transwomen - these are effeminate men, very common in more conservative societies such as India, the Philippines, and Indonesia, Brazil, who have sex exclusively with men but present as female (or third gender) to do so. They will typically retain male genitalia as they are homosexual men in all but name, so having a penis is usually part of the deal. Less common in the UK then in some of the aforementioned countries, by themselves they don't pose a threat to women, but the likes of Paris Lees campaign side-by-side with the below:

Autogynephile transwomen - these are men who get sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women. They will have been heterosexual prior to transition, but after transition may have sex with men as part of their fetish. Men like Caitlyn Jenner report masturbating in their daughter's underwear prior to 'transition'. Emboldened by strident activism they make often unreasonable demands on the basis that they are women. They will have penises and often boast about it. Many claim to be intersex on the thinnest of pretexts (intersex people reject all conflation with transgender). Examples include Hannah Mouncey www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-set-to-make-vwfl-call-on-hannah-mouncey-20180205-h0u93f.html, Jordan Raskopoulos www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/how-i-fell-in-love-with-roller-derby Caitlyn Jenner, pretty much all the transwomen in the Labour party (Anna Lee ('anally') www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/26/first-trans-student-to-run-for-womens-officer-stands-up-to-backlash, Heather Peto twitter.com/heatherisone, Emily Brothers www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/03/emily-brothers-labours-first-transgender-candidate-interview, Eddie Izzard www.itv.com/loosewomen/eddie-izzard-im-a-wannabe-lesbian-ive-fancied-women-always-but-i-also-sort-of-wanted-to-be-one, Sophie Cook www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/05/16/sophie-cook-transgender-woman-football-standing-general-election/, Lily Madigan archive.is/B6lid)

On the whole 80%+ of MTF transgenders have penises. Trans 'vaginas' really don't work very well.

Many of the AGP group get specific sexual thrills by violating women's spaces and may make absurd demands using transgender identity. E.g.:

1.bp.blogspot.com/-Kwyx9zZM5Pk/WMZiLWFgWvI/AAAAAAAALLI/s8D5OjQFOQMjIe2ovnqdmLAPnFI_GKc4gCLcB/s1600/DanMus.jpg
transcrimeuk.com/2017/10/31/andrew-burns-tiffany-scott/
transcrimeuk.com/2017/10/30/gary-marie/
metro.co.uk/2018/02/05/transgender-pedophile-blasts-prison-officials-refusing-give-tampons-7288513/

The vile demands of the most extreme fringe, whom the transgender community as a whole is unwilling to disown, makes it impossible to separate the reasonable demands from the deranged.

If you object to anything (e.g. your little girl in a leisure centre changing room with a naked man) then you are a bigoted transphobe. So there can be no discussion, their motto is #nodebate and the TRAs are 'no-platforming' anyone who has perfectly reasonable questions around the law changing to self ID. Yet it has very little to do with trans, and a lot to do with men who will exploit the self ID law. Men - all men - can go anywhere they please once this becomes law, there is no requirement to even look feminine, they just have to say they are a woman. And everyone's role is to agree.

I figure it really isn't my problem. And I like it when things are not my problem

I've never been killed by a drunk driver, therefore drunk driving isn't my problem.

I've never been burgled, therefore I don't care about locking my doors.

I've never been murdered by a terrorist, therefore I don't care about the prevention of terrorism.

Hmm...

@NomsQualityStreet The thing is it is deeply and profoundly unethical to essentially force someone to have major and risky surgery to prove to everyone that they have a certain medically recognised condition.

Surgery is a massive deal that is not right for everyone, and you literally cannot oblige someone to have it just to fit you idea of what their "condition" may or may not require.

You have a chronic pain condition but don't want to have invasive surgery to correct it? Not real pain then. Want me to believe you're in pain? I'll strap you to the table. Doctors tell you an amputation could take your pain levels from 8/10 to 4/10 but you'd rather have more pain and your hand than 50% less pain? Not your choice. Oh, and if you don't have the surgery we won't believe you have any pain at all so... no pain meds for you!

It's not right, it's not ethical and "obligatory" surgery would never exist within a civilised society.

Thing is, the TA lobby don’t care about women fearing men.

They don’t get it - because they are men. Because they have not grown up as part of the oppressed class.

They want into our spaces for validation not safety.

Does it mean that women can also go into men only environments (changing rooms, sauna sessions, men only clubs... and demand a prostate check call-up?).

Yes we are expected to go along with the idea that women can have penis.

If you say a woman can't have a dick you are a bigot / a transphobe apparently and will come in for a load of abuse if you say this online. Women are losing their jobs for standing up against this.

We are expected to believe that as soon as a man says he's a woman, he poses no threat to us and should be welcomed onto our changing rooms etc.

If you point out sexually predatory men / voyeurs may declare themself a women to get access to women and girls you are accused of calling all transpeople criminals because you're a bigot - Although the evidence is transwomen retain male pattern violence.

ALL the main political parties support this.

The Tories have suggested an amendment to the law that will mean anyone who wants can change gender just by signing a form.

Labour just threw out a councillor, Jennifer James for saying "women don't have dicks" on twitter. She's organising a crowd funder for legal fees to try to force labour to keep all women short lists for only women and transwomen who have a gender recognition certificate. Labour are saying anyone can say their a woman and get on the list. A 19 year old who was a boy until recently is now one of Labour's women's officers and since being elected has openly waged a war against labour women who put their name on the crowdfunder - along with many other (mostly male) councillors sucessfully getting 3 so far chucked out out.

The green party say there are men and non men.

If you want to learn more about this follow a woman's place on twitter and msjenniferjames.

Be careful speaking about this on your own named social media.Publicly saying women don't have dicks is enough to lose your job for many positions.

The level of hate directed at women for trying to protect our rights here extremely worrying. Many of the trans rights activists are openly misogynistic and politicians, enployers public bodies are choosing to side with them.

Does it mean that women can also go into men only environments (changing rooms, sauna sessions, men only clubs... and demand a prostate check call-up?).

Yes but as woman are generally not a threat to men no one is that bothered.

Where women are a threat to men woukd be if we could self identify into being a man where the family passes inherited titles down the male line. But guess what - this is the only exemption in law. Transmen cannot inherit titles.

Men are protected. Women are not.

geekymommy I've never been assaulted by a trans woman in a bathroom either - I've happily gone to the loo in pubs with trans women friends. No problem.

What I do have an issue with is a change in the law that says that ANY man can insist he is a woman without making any changes to his physical appearance at all, which doesn't give trans women any more rights but does pave the way for ANY male sexual predator to follow you, or me, or a trans woman, into the loo claiming to be a woman himself.

How likely is it - I don't know and I don't think I want to find out. Ladies' loos are less of an issue to me than the same thing happening in prisons, rape crisis centres, DV shelters and homeless centres though.

What if the woman is a paedophile and has a liking for young teenage boys? And says she is a actually a man and has a mangina?

Is there a law now that stops men and women going into the opposite toilets?
I have only known one transgender male to female person personally. She transitioned over a 3 year period and had surgery. Nobody had any issue that they expressed.
The whole anyone can go into the changing rooms at topshop does concern me as a woman and parent to girls. Unless there are floor to ceiling cubicles with locks.

Fekko this kind of whataboutery is ridiculous. You are ignoring the fact that the vast majority of sexual predators are men.

Women are currently a protected sex - we are protected from men.

Why should we not be protected from those same men if they put a dress on?

The government must not legally force on everyone else that ‘anyone can be a girl or woman if they say so’ and then use that as logic to argue that ‘anyone can now go into girls and womens private spaces because they have decided they are a woman’...

Just no. We already know that girls and women are put at risk by this. We know that creeps will take advantage of the green light of access that this gives them.

This ‘inclusive’ agenda is being pushed in schools, colleges, shop changing rooms, leisure centres, sleeping arrangements on school trips- you name it. People are called transphobic at work and their jobs are put at risk if they disagree with. This is even BEFORE the law has been changed.

Individuals and organisations in power think it’s ‘progress’ and ‘inclusive’ so they want to be ‘ahead of the law’ on this issue. Yet it’s perfectly legal now, already, to protect women and girls’ spaces and services only for their use. But organisations are being told by trans-activists that they are transphobic and at risk of legal action if they use the laws we already have to protect women and girls.

It’s not ‘being inclusive’ or ‘progressive’ to put girls and women at risk. Nobody knows just by looking, which man will turn out to be a sexual predator and which is not. That rule is just as true in settings where women and girls are vulnerable, which is why common sense sex-segregation is put in those settings in the first place.

Women and girls’ safety must come first, not the validation of anyone else’s gender feelings. Men do the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crime, that is an unarguable fact. Why would this self-identification agenda, want to ignore facts?

If this worries you, please email your local MP to say you don’t agree with gender self -identification being made legal, because they would be the ones making the law on this. (Your correspondence with your MP is private BTW).

Sorry- that was long!

Yes Fekko, your example is unlikely, but further proves why this law shouldn't be passed.

AJP well, sort of. The law at the moment says that women are females and also those who have transitioned and got a Gender Recognition Certificate. Obviously it doesn't mean that a man walking into women's loos or changing rooms will evaporate in a puff of dust. But it does mean that women are confident to challenge those they think are in the wrong place (I know, I've been challenged - in my younger days I looked like a teenage boy!)

If the law changes so that a woman is anybody who says they are regardless of physical biology and outward expression of societally recognised gender norms then women will a) be unable to work out which of the twelve men in front of them is a predator (going on the 'one in twelve' statistic of men who admit predation) and b) will not feel confident to challenge someone. Women are socialised not to confront people anyway. This would make it doubly difficult.

Your friend has every right to use the women's loo right now. Would she be comfortable with a fetishist man with a thing for trans women (google "chaser" if you're not at work and feeling brave) following her in saying "I'm a woman just like you, love" or would she feel her privacy was being invaded and / or actually at risk? I'd bet on the latter.

Then Fekko she would be prosecuted and have the book thrown at her because it seems the law is far less sympathetic to those they think are women "posing as" men than to men "self identifying" as women. Could this be something to do with historic belief that women are manipulative seductive liars with the curse of Eve perhaps.

As in the cases of Gayle Newland, Kyran Lee, Chris Wilson, Justine McNally and Gemma Barker.

I’m saying that it cuts both ways. Women saying that they are wary of men’s intentions if they gain access to female only facilities - are men also concerned by women gaining access to male only facilities? Granted the number of female abusers is lower than male but it’s not that it never happens is it?

Women couldn’t possibly misuse a law for their own gratification? No? Do you not consider that both sexes have individuals who will manipulate and use laws in place for reasons other than genuine?

I have no issue with men in a ‘female’ place - but which men and why? I’ve trained in dojos where on occasion I’ve had to change in front of the sensei because of the lack of facilities. I chose to do so and felt safe to do so. Not sure I’d be happy in the loos if it was some man I’d never met before.

Do you not consider that both sexes have individuals who will manipulate and use laws in place for reasons other than genuine?

This is such deflecting nonsense.

Sexual assault is NOT fair or balanced.
Rape is NOT fair or balanced.
Male violence against women is NOT fair or balanced.

And men and women's biology is different.

That's why women have protection from men where we are vulnerable.

98% of sexual crimes are by men.

When was the last time you saw women catcalling men in the street? They don't do it, yet men do this to women and very young girls every fucking day.

Men are a physical threat to women because they are stronger. A women I know was asked by a stranger to go out with him, at a train station. She politely declined so he pushed her down a flight of metal stairs, breaking her nose and smashing her teeth. This shit happens. Women don't do this to men. Even if there were lots of women who wanted to act like that men are generally bigger and stronger than us so they're not scared of us.

Refusing to recognise that men - or men including those who have decided to live as women - are a much greater threat to women's safety than vice versa is a massive betrayal to women.