To not understand this? *trans related*

[NomsQualityStreets]

I don't want this to be a TAAT but my post was triggered about something I read today about someone being a "woman with a penis" generally threads I've been reading about stores amending their changing room policies and more.

I'm not versed enough on the subject and I don't understand how that can pass?? Please excuse my questioning but I'm very new to the discussion and would like someone to clarify this for me.

Surely if you're a biological man who feels he is a woman and wants to be acknowledged as a woman and is truly committed to it you have a sex change? - and you shouldn't be allowed into female spaces until you've undergone that?
How can you possibly expect to be treated like a woman AND keep your male genitals?

Again sorry if this offends anyone but I'm just quite confused.

98% of sexual crimes are by men.

Out of genuine curiosity, I've seen this stat around a lot.

But do you know what proportion of those sexual crimes are against women? As opposed to against other men for example, or indeed against children, or that don't invlove and present victim at all - e.g. pornographic material-related crimes, or revenge porn?

I have not doubt it will still be a clear majority, but what would the numbers be?

I'd also be interested to know if anyone can say, of the sexual crimes against women, how many are against a partner? Or another known person - a friend or a colleague? Or are related to prostitution?

Because I don't think it's fair to include those stats when attempting to show how sexual offences by men are somehow likely to occur in public bathrooms against women, were they to be mixed gender spaces.

My dh would be uncomfortable if a woman was in the male changing facilities after a game of squash. But he wouldn't be frightened.

RatRolyPoly the majority of the crimes are against women, some against men. But I don't understand why that matters?

If we know men are generally the perpetrators and women aren't, and men are stronger than women on the whole, why on earth shouldn't we demand protection from them?

Why are you talking about a public / private divide? Undoubtably many of those crimes were committed by a male partner - but are you really trying to deny women get raped and attacked by strangers?

Why are you trying to minimise and derail this?

This is such bullshit.

We all know men are a threat to women. But this is how the argument is going. Inviting men into women's safe spaces IS a threat to women.

But when women point out - transwomen pose the same threat as men to women (the evidence is that they do) - people go "oh but why do we have segregated sex spaces anyway? men aren't all bad and anyway women are probably just as bad too" which is:

a. not true
b. means we're backtracking into an argument that was won decades ago, instead of looking at whether the evidence says transwomen are just as much of a threat as men (they are)

Women's safe spaces are going to go, taking us back decades.

How many rapes of women - not to mention all the voyersm and general sexual abuse and intimidation will it take in women's prisons, hospital wards and refuges before people accept it's a bad idea? Or - how about we just don't do it and let women keep our protected spaces?

Ratroly
9/10 rapes in the U.K. are carried out by someone the victim knows.

In India, where bathrooms are largely unsegregated by sex, the figures for opportunistic rape by a stranger are 9/10.

What does that prove?

That male sexual violence is a problem and that we need to think carefully about how we protect women.

But when women point out - transwomen pose the same threat as men to women (the evidence is that they do)

The evidence is that the DON'T.

Would you like me to send you a link to a thread where Datun gets absolutely schooled on the stats by another poster, but in the end everyone just chimes in with "yeah, but what about prisons?" Or "so what do you think a woman is?" instead of conceding that, actually, one of the fundemtal statistics everyone parrots out is unproven, baseless bullshit?

ratroly I would like to read that thread if you can find it?

Hi Morphene, the debunking starts here on page 12. The poster is called Debbie6666.

You can see for yourself where that "fact" comes from as she links the studies in question.

You can see for yourself how the author of the study clarified the findings by saying this does not show what it is being used to show.

You can see for yourself that the only fallback position available is to say the author must have been "got at" by the TRA, based on absolutely nothing at all.

And you can see for yourself how no concession is reached and the whole thing just descends into "yeah, but what about all this other stuff".

And lastly I'm really sorry for my tone; I'm a bit ratty this morning and need to do the Tesco's shop but I just cannot abide bad stats!

If people represent themselves as a different gender for sexual thrills, then I get it - that needs to be constrained. If its a genuine desire to be a woman or a man, then why is there this need on mumsnet to be so outraged.

Please tell us - how can you tell the difference?

The new law will say that anyone who says they are a woman, IS a woman in law. No matter what their motivation.

RatRolyPoly where is your evidence that transwomen commit crime like women not men?

Half of transwomen offenders in prison are there for sex offences or category A prisoners.

Are half of women there for sex offences or category A offences? No they are not. A small minority are.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/transgender-prisoners/

Stop with this bullshit.

Men are a threat to women. There is NO proof that transwomen become just like women because they want to be one. Indeed the actions of the TRAs online is very male - throwing vile abuse and threats at women who dare to disagree with them (not at men, just at women).

And this is now spilling over to actual violence in real life, with the attack in speaker's corner on a 60 year old by a male-bodied person in his 20s. The TRAs said she deserved it for daring to be there basically, and take a picture of the TRAS who were chanting. The attacker Tanis Wolf (AKa Tara Flik Wood) bragged about wanting to beat up terfs on FB book before he went - I'm looking forward to seeing him try to wriggle out of that in court.

goodyzoe please ready the thread I have linked.

And bloody hell, why does everyone keep linking from that one single biased website? Can we have an original source here please people!

No women are agitating to let men into womens psychiatric wards, prisons,. changing rooms, Rape Crisis or DV shelters. ITs driven by men.

Gender is now more important than biology but women still have to obey all of the rules that control their behaviour, and defer to men. Because men say so. Its not difficult to understand, its a mens rights movement.

You only have to look at the way people fawn over Andi Dier to see it.

This is where this ridiculous thinking leads - here's trans woman India Willoughby refusing to even entertain the idea that predatory men would dress as women to get access to female spaces.

But - why wouldn't they?! (And we have plenty of evidence this happens)

Willoughby also talks over the female guest implying her own, uneducated, opinion on women's refuges is more important that the expertise of a women who's worked in them for years (how very fucking male, don't you think?)

Transwomen have been socialised as men. What evidence is there that their behaviour changes to a women's once they "become" one?

Willoughby's answer to an abused woman feeling uncomfortable with someone with a penis in a women's refuge is that it's fine, the transwoman would understand and back off. No understanding or empathy with the woman. Why should she have to communicate her trauma to someone who's presence makes her feel traumatised? All about the transwoman's right to be where she pleases and fuck everyone else.

So do you think the person on duty in the changing room should ask everyone to drop their knickers so she can check?

Even if you don’t believe the stats, do you believe me? I don’t want anyone with a penis working in a women’s aid hostel, or in a changing room with my children.

I don’t care what you think about that. It’s my right to have a sex segregated space. I don’t have to justify why this is not a good idea.

If a friend wanted to come to mine for a cup of tea and I said no would I then have to back that up with facts and figures?

I believe trans people should be safe and should have their own safe spaces. What is wrong with having sex segregated spaces and a gender neutral space for those that need/ want it?

If a friend wanted to come to mine for a cup of tea and I said no would I then have to back that up with facts and figures?

Nope, but if you yourself present me with an argument that is based on facts and figures, they had better damn well be right.

The rest of the argument I am admittedly avoiding for time purposes (literally need to not be on MN right now!), but I really do wish someone would just say "okay, that stat's massively misleading, let's stop using it" - and call others out every time they see it repeated - because then we might actually be able to move this whole thing forwards.

RatRolyPoly I will look at the link - I have to go into a meeting now but I will look later.

But n the meantime - we KNOW men are sexually violent towards women, and just general sleezes a lot of the time.

Why should we believe transwomen would be any different, given they have been socialised as men, lived in men's bodies and if anyone who just says they are can be a woman?

What proof do you have that as soon as a man becomes trans, he'll stop being as criminal as he would have been before? (wherever he was on that scale).

I can't understand why you care so much... i'm a man

Shocker.

Rat thanks for linking to that thread. I accept (and am relieved by) the stats showing that with increased MH support trans women do not commit male pattern violence.

I would be interested to know what those stats would now look like if it included not just transsexual women but the wider spectrum of AMSAB*
transgender people, that is to say including cross-dressers and fetishists. I suspect it would skew things in the other direction.

Although none of this really addresses the main issue which isn't whether or not trans women are a threat (which I don't think that they are) but whether predatory non-trans men would seize on an option which gave them unfettered access to women and girls without needing to bother to change anything about themselves first.

*assigned male status at birth

Although while we're talking stats, I see "80% of trans women keep their penis" quite a lot and the only source I've ever found for this was a survey of college-aged trans people in America, where the same number said that they would have surgery if it was covered by their health insurance.

Anyone able to help with that one?

Why should we believe transwomen would be any different, given they have been socialised as men, lived in men's bodies and if anyone who just says they are can be a woman?

Because it is the findings of the only study done on the subject that they DO display typically female crime patterns after transition (after the mid 1980s).

What proof do you have that as soon as a man becomes trans, he'll stop being as criminal as he would have been before? (wherever he was on that scale).

I'm not offering the above as proof, please don't think I'm saying it proves anything, because it doesn't; one study doesn't prove anything. But it certainly gives one a valid reason for believing it. And it certainly contradicts anyone trying to "prove" the contrary.

Although none of this really addresses the main issue which isn't whether or not trans women are a threat (which I don't think that they are) but whether predatory non-trans men would seize on an option which gave them unfettered access to women and girls without needing to bother to change anything about themselves first.

It seems to me the argument over transwomen being a threat or not is overshadowing the massive self ID loophole. Why is that?

I think we need clearer terminology, because "transwomen" encompasses too wide a field.

Point taken.

I don’t think TRAs threatening violence against women on twitter, at events, in private Facebook pages supports the argument that transwomen are harmless. There are numerous death threats, actual harm and planned violent attacks on women before the law has been changed - what will happen if it is?

Check out these stories and the film!

Rat thanks for linking to that thread. I accept (and am relieved by) the stats showing that with increased MH support trans women do not commit male pattern violence.

Phew, I am so so glad to hear you say that Wiggy, I really want people to stop using that stat. I really want people to call it out.

And like you I would also like to see what the stats would look like now.