To not understand this? *trans related*

[NomsQualityStreets]

I don't want this to be a TAAT but my post was triggered about something I read today about someone being a "woman with a penis" generally threads I've been reading about stores amending their changing room policies and more.

I'm not versed enough on the subject and I don't understand how that can pass?? Please excuse my questioning but I'm very new to the discussion and would like someone to clarify this for me.

Surely if you're a biological man who feels he is a woman and wants to be acknowledged as a woman and is truly committed to it you have a sex change? - and you shouldn't be allowed into female spaces until you've undergone that?
How can you possibly expect to be treated like a woman AND keep your male genitals?

Again sorry if this offends anyone but I'm just quite confused.

WiggyPig, I don't know about America but I used to work with the vice squad in a big British city. We had pre op trans prostitutes who said it was the only way they could make the money for the op. Maybe it was harder to get on the NHS then, I don't know. I can imagine the whole process would be expensive.

RatRolyPoly

But when women point out - transwomen pose the same threat as men to women (the evidence is that they do)

The evidence is that the DON'T.

Would you like me to send you a link to a thread where Datun gets absolutely schooled on the stats by another poster, but in the end everyone just chimes in with "yeah, but what about prisons?" Or "so what do you think a woman is?" instead of conceding that, actually, one of the fundemtal statistics everyone parrots out is unproven, baseless bullshit?

Absolutely schooled? Interesting.

You are using that survey as the basis for your argument?

Because I'm not.

I'm using that survey, prison statistics, prison stats in other countries, the statistical evidence that shows a transvestite sexual fetish as the most common paraphilia in male convicts, the rape threats and violence from terf is a slur, the two videos of this never happens, the website this never happens, and the website trans crimes UK.

Also the no platforming and violent demonstrations of TRAs towards women who want to talk about this.

And finally, the vitriol directed both online and in real life, by TRAs, towards any woman who questions the ideology.

I would like to ask a question, that I have asked over and over, but never had an answer to.

Please direct me towards similar evidence that men identifying as women commit crime at the same rate as women?

Just because you don't like the stats collated by fairplayforwomen.com, that doesn't make it a biased source. Those figures were later confirmed by the ministry for justice, if anything it's underestimated slightly. There was an article in the Times about it.

You can also check out Women in prison's website for stats on the kind of crimes women are jailed for compared to men.

We had pre op trans prostitutes who said it was the only way they could make the money for the op.

...and I learnt recently that prostitution is in fact a sex offence (correct me if I'm wrong granny) that will be lumped into a stat showing "look how many sex offences transwomen commit" and "look how many transwomen there are in sex-offender-only jails" and spewed out over and over again to show how transwomen are exactly the same kind of sexual predators as men.

Sorry, got a bit carried away there, I realise that. Off to calm myself and come back logical

Ah Flavia, your post x-posted with what would be my reply.

Sorry Datun, I'll have to come back to this chat, my sincerest apologies.

I believe that’s called baiting

It's called the Tesco's shop actually, but the server's down.

RatRolyPoly Tue 06-Feb-18 11:07:20
Rat thanks for linking to that thread. I accept (and am relieved by) the stats showing that with increased MH support trans women do not commit male pattern violence.

So it is a MH problem, thanks for confirming what we've been saying all along.

I was quoting another poster.

I am always amazed that you can get a Gender Recognition Certificate without having to take hormones or have surgery of any kind.

You can change your birth certificate with a GRC. So I gave birth to a boy in 2002 for example. In the future that reality could be changed to show the legal fiction that I gave birth to a girl.

It makes me feel a bit like I'm in a science fiction film. Where reality can just be changed. Except of course it can't. That boy I gave birth to will always be biologically a boy. He will suffer from male related illnesses and not female ones.

Rat I'd be extremely surprised if your analysis were correct. Prostitution per se is not an offence in the UK. Soliciting / loitering are offences, as is sex in a public place. Other offences such as profiting from the sexual activity of another (pimping) do not attach to the prostituted individual.

If someone is found soliciting they are usually dealt with by way of fine (counterproductive I know) which is often "deemed served" by their night in the cells. If they are repeatedly arrested then they would be likely to get an ASBO and breach of that might get them a short custodial sentence but they'd be looking at six weeks rather than six months.

Anybody spending a serious amount of time in custody for prostitution related offences is unlikely to have been selling their own consent.

granny I think if you want to go the private route then it would be extremely expensive, yes.

No worries RatRolyPoly.

I understand things get very heated.

It's exceptionally difficult to be able to quantify what is happening, based on the fact that there have been few studies. Specifically in to crime rate.

Women's personal experience is having a huge effect. We see newspaper articles about men being arrested for sex crime, but being referred to as women, transactivists telling us to not mention our biology, or that being treated like a piece of meat is empowering.

We can read with our own eyes the narratives of autogynephiles. The Internet is awash with men identifying as women with a. quite clearly, sexual fetish.

We see the 'acceptable face' of transactivism in India Willoughby, saying she feels sorry for the men who are being demonised for killing women.

We see TRAs standing behind the transwoman who abused Rose McGowan. Despite being a sexual predator, and her the victim of one.

We know what is happening. We can see it.

We also know that there are many, many transwomen just want to get on with this under the radar and do not have a sexual fetish or want to politicise any points whatsoever.

They post on this site. Fully behind women.

I don't think anyone thinks that all transwomen are the same. They're not.

Unfortunately, the ones who do have a political point to make, are misogynistic, and are gunning for women, are the ones pushing for the law change.

In the meantime they are making an absolute point of getting women to feel intimidated and uncomfortable.

And finally, doesn't matter if a man isn't going to rape me, in my intimate space. I still don't want him there.

I have boundaries based on privacy and personal dignity.

And I shall maintain them.

It's actually ok if we women don't care about stats. Stats are meaningless in the face of women's real lived experiences. Men don't belong in women's spaces and transwomen are a subset of men not women. They are male and always will be male regardless of what they feel like in their head. They should be campaigning for gender neutral spaces not trying to muscle in on spaces where women feel vulnerable in order to validate their own perception of themselves.

A nice big step forward would be if someone could just give us a definition of woman that includes trans identifying males but excludes male identifying males.

Ill save you time. There's isn't one.

@busyboysmum Reality apparently is anything you fancy it to be, anything other than actual facts - facts is for squares and bigots...

RatRolyPoly, I had moved on by the time the 2003 act came in so may have changed things.

Street prostitutes, soliciting/importuning, are committing an offense. Other things will increase the chances of men getting a conviction that wouldn't happen to women e.g. what used to be called "cottaging" criminal for men not women.

Because it is the findings of the only study done on the subject that they DO display typically female crime patterns after transition (after the mid 1980s)

So, let's define a transwoman. By transwoman I am talking about the broad church - anyone who says they are a woman, for whatever reason, NOT only those with gender dysporia.

I think one of the problems is that when people talk about transwomen, those who aren't aware of what's going on, think of the old-school transsexuals who want to blend in as women and aren't political as a group. But these days there's a much broader definition, including we are to believe, anyone who wants to be called a woman - including fetishists and even people who dress as men in the week and only live as women on the weekends!

In fact, the new Trans Rights Activists are so against the idea that trans is only about gender dysphoria that often they despise transexuals who think this, calling them Truscum.

No one here, as far as I know, had any particular problem with transwomen before the Trans Rights Ideology took hold, more recently, and before we started moving to selfID.

I haven't looked at the study yet (I really shouldn't be here, I'm between two meetings!) but what kind of transwomen is it looking at? Is it transexuals with gender dysphoria or this much wider group that are modern transwomen, and who are agressively demanding their rights to be in our refuges, hospital wards and prisons?

Hi wiggy, I have mis-used what was being talked about actually (it's further along in that thread I linked actually) - so yes, I agree with you saying not likely in the UK. The discussion I'm mis-remembering was, I think, to do with sex-offender numbers somewhere in the U.S., and the number of trans "sex offenders" in prisons, or trans prisoners in sex offence specific prisons. Hence the criminalised prostitution being relevant. I will re-read shortly.

God, I really need Tesco to come back online, my brain is too mushy right now for me to keep coming back to this!

That's useful granny, thank you. I'm going to do some reading - funny things you get interested in on MN!

Yep, they're basically nasty fucking blokes with a side order of autogynephilia who have found a new and so far generally unchallenged way to abuse women.

A million miles from the genuine transsexuals I have a. known and b. recently read more and more of the writings of.

I'll save my respectful use of pronouns for them until this insanity is over, thanks.

No one here, as far as I know, had any particular problem with transwomen before the Trans Rights Ideology took hold, more recently, and before we started moving to selfID.

Yup, exactly. Because that's when the bullying MANsplaining ulterior motive brigade barged their way in.

If you started a thread about men being on post natal wards overnight, you'd get many posters slamming it as a policy because women on these wards are so vulnerable.

sundaymorningatwork

Please don’t repeat completely unsubstantiated rumours about Jamie Lee Curtis. There is absolutely no evidence that she has anything other than the usual XX chromosomes the same as all other women.

FFS - I hope everyone can see what RolyPoly is trying to do - they are trying to get us to believe men aren't as sexually violent as we all know they are.

Not all men, obviously! But enough that we ALL know we must be wary of strange men.

Why is RolyPoly denying this? They are more interested in men being able to do whatever they want to (e.g. identify as a woman, if they chose) than with women being safe.

Trans rights activism is a male rights movement.

Not all transwomen believe the TRA ideology.

Miranda Yardley for example is an outspoken transwoman who defends her right to live as a woman (as she rightly should) but does not believe she is actually a woman, biologically.

She is very clear that she is a man living as a woman. This it is the truth that trans rights activists are trying to bully us into denying.

I haven't looked at the study yet (I really shouldn't be here, I'm between two meetings!) but what kind of transwomen is it looking at? Is it transexuals with gender dysphoria

Just had another look. And gender dysphoria was a condition, as was SRS.

So they would have been what you would call your old style transsexuals. No one self identified.

The study did not separate out what they meant by violent crime. They included 'normal' violence, along with sexual violence. They didn't make a distinction.

I'm more than willing to believe, that a man diagnosed with gender dysphoria and has had SRS, would be less likely to commit a sexual offence, than an autogynephile.

Interestingly, the main thrust of the study was about other things.

The mortality rate, for instance. And it found that transitioning made little difference. Until post 10 years, when it increased.

The Kaplan-Meier curve (Figure 1) suggests that survival of transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls after about 10 years of follow-up. The cause-specific mortality from suicide was much higher in sex-reassigned persons, compared to matched controls.

Which rather undermines the argument that likes to leverage suicide as a means of transitioning children.

For anyone who wants to read the actual study, here is a link.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016885

Also, any statisticians out there who understand the 'stat speak' and can provide clarity for the difference in the two cohorts, it would be very useful!