To ask if you had your time again would you have been a SAHM?

[DiscoPanick]

I've NC for this because of obvious reasons concerning linking threads and so forth.

What invariably happens if you take time off from your job/career and what if your H/P leaves you? Times had changed since alimony was granted. These days you'd leave with just the clothes on your back. That is if you didn't have personal savings or wealth.

Even if childcare renders you working at a net loss on a monthly basis, is it worth still having a foot in the door versus not.

The feeling of guilt concerning WOHMs is all well and good but will not ultimately put food on the table. (The feeling of guilt that is)

I'm just working through a few thoughts and need to consult with friends and others to see what others have done.

Being a SAHP doesn't mean being a SAHP forever. Life happens in stages... school, uni, work, parenthood, work, more work, more work, and if your lucky retirement than death. Taking a relatively short amount of time out of this to provide child care for children, does not cancel out what went before or what comes after. I can be both a SAHP and an aspirational role model to my children

^ this

I’m struggling to understand this concept of society under valuing the contribution of parents. Hundreds of millions of people become parents every year. Most of us choose to have kids so it’s our responsibility to raise our kids well. It’s not a special mission.

Taking a relatively short amount of time out of this to provide child care for children, does not cancel out what went before or what comes after.

Well I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is that work is structured so that the second you get pregnant men and women are treated differently. Dh got a congratulations and a promotion when we announced I was expecting. I had my reporting line stripped off me, and my company suddenly decided that no I wasn’t a star performer anymore I was to be managed out. Luckily I was good at my job so they didn’t manage to get enough leverage to do so but they damn well tried. On my return I was demoted. Dh was promoted again.

We live in a country where they do try to be as equal as possible and encourage men to take parental leave and work flexibly. Unfortunately none of the international companies here seem to have gotten onboard with it.

More flexible work is the key - for both sexes, whether they are parents or carers. The culture of long hours presenteeism is ridiculous and highly sexist - if deals are being done on the golf course/late nights/short notice travel then you’re automatically excluding a huge proportion of your workforce who just cannot fuck off to Miami on a days notice. Which basically means women, since women are mainly the carers.

The idea of being able to take a few years out would be the ideal for me - however it’s something I’ve found too much resistance to in practice.

My mum was a SAHM for approx 10 years and regrets it. She struggled getting back into work and worked long hours as well as studying to retrain, while we were teenagers and probably needed her more. She lost a lot of confidence too. I don't remember any of the time spent at home with her before starting school. She always advised me and my sister to at least try to keep working part time if we could.

I'm on maternity leave and will be returning to work full time, with a view to paying off some debts and then being able to reduce hours for the primary school years so I can do pick ups and drop offs etc.

Unfortunately none of the international companies here seem to have gotten onboard with it

Well I work for a huge international firm, one of the biggest, and I have ever seen what you describe. Personally I went from strength to strength,

And many women are the main careers through choice. Why can't your husband be the one who stays home?

I'm sorry, but if they kept demoting you and trying to manage you out, that's more than simply because you're a parent. There was a performance issue there. And I struggle to believe a large international promoted your husband for no reason other than he was to become a parent. I've never heard of such a thing in a large international since the 50s. It's more likely small companies behave this way.

Bluntness - even if the was no gender pay gap and equally flexible, family-friendly working hours for all, do you not still think that a higher proportion of women than men would opt to SAH, simply because in general, they're more biologically or instinctively inclined to do so?

Well very odd to have the highest ratings and a chat with the boss on how fabulous you are on Monday then an abrupt volte-face on Wednesday, no? I didn’t start running the company into the floor, snorting coke of the thighs of the office juniors in two days. I was just... doing my job.
And when I got back after mat leave and was demoted sideways, (no one ‘kept’ demoting me, it was a one time retaliation for me getting pregnant) i managed again to become suddenly good at my job and was promoted back above the level I left at. Amazing!
I repeatedly requested feedback and none was forthcoming. So no, I reject the idea of a performance issue. (Also having spoken off the record to certain people confirmed this. Boss went a bit odd when I was pregnant and tried to get rid but couldn’t, because my performance was excellent as it always has been.) believe me, it’s a brutal industry, of she’d found a single thing she could have had me out of the foot.

I’m not the main carer. Dh and I are equal parents. Why would you assume I’m the main carer?

It’s great youve never seen this, although of course I’m sure you understand that just because you have, it doesn’t not exist. Also what industry are you in?

I’ve seen women - high performing, dedicated workers fired, bullied, demoted and sidelined as soon as they have revealed a pregnancy. Never seen it happen to a man. The rot starts there. It continues all the way along with different attitudes to Male and female parents. If ds is sick we split days off equally. Dh gets told what a great progressive dad he is and I get moaned at. It’s a huge double standard. The mummy track is real.

I can totally see why some women think fuck it and go the sahp route.

I've seen bosses switch off when a senior or up and coming employee falls pregnant. Most wouldn't even recognise it in themselves. It's tacit - not being given interesting projects, not included in key meetings, no invited to client events. Nothing that you can call out, just all very subtle and under the radar.

Interestingly, I know many professional parents who work three or four day week for family reasons. Many of them men. And nearly always when they explain why they can't make a meeting on (say) a Friday it's "Oh do you. That's wonderful." I'm sure not many women get that reaction. more likely an eye roll and a judgement of not committed

Dh gets told what a great progressive dad he is and I get moaned at. It’s a huge double standard. The mummy track is real.

This is exactly what I think @Backenette. I suppose I wonder if this attitude is starting to die out. It's bloody 2018 yet here we still are.

One of my male colleagues has recently disclosed that his wife is pregnant, congrats and back slapping all round. I don't know her and don't work with her but I wonder what her reception was like. I would bet my house that there was a bit of panic regarding her duties and how they'd be covered.

No regrets about being a SAHM.
I've posted before about how much I enjoyed it but as a family we reviewed our arrangements regularly to check it was still working for us.
Like others, I believe it was just a stage in my life - new opportunities are available now my children are older.
As for being a role model, I think it's possible to be a fantastic role model even if you don't have a paid job.
Volunteering to be a counsellor for the Samaritans, Childline or CAB make a real difference to the society we live in. Many of my friends ( and I) have made significant contributions to our local community as a result of being SAHPs. Of course, publicly, we never say that.
I would also add that our children and young people are experiencing higher levels of stress, anxiety and challenges than ever before.
If you make it through the teenage years and have happy, well adjusted, confident children with a sense of purpose, then however we've organised our lives, work, careers, full time, part time, SAHP, you breathe a sigh of relief and think, we must have got something right.

I'm sorry, but if they kept demoting you and trying to manage you out, that's more than simply because you're a parent. There was a performance issue there.

You can't possibly have any idea whether this is true or not.

Backenette I believe you

I was demoted once. In retaliation (and I know it was retaliation because some very embarrassed VP gave me the heads up.)

Demoted repeatedly is something bluntness herself has inferred, wrongly.

olly that’s what happened to me and I’ve seen it happen repeatedly. The invites to the interesting meetings stop. Because you’ll be off for a bit having a baby. It’s frustratingly short sighted. Having say two maternity leaves is a short bit of a long working life. I’ve just had one colleague give birth having hidden an entire pregnancy up to the last minute because she was so scared of this.

Senior management are talking about her with disgust as if she’s done something hideous and taboo. She will take nine weeks mat leave (US based) and be back working stupid hours. It’s a ridiculous environment.

Oh but the senior male who has taken a sabbatical to work on a vanity project? He’s fine, like. No disgust there.

Ignoring the SAHP/WOHP bashing posts this is (almost) an interesting thread on choices for women and feminism.

Whatever your choice (if you're fortunate enough to have a choice), we can't ignore the fact that more women than men live in poverty in this country. Whether that's through having to bear the costs of raising a child alone or through inadequate pensions/savings for elderly women or through being driven into low paid work.
That's just not on.

There's a need for better balance between women and men, both at home and in the workplace.

Incidentally I never understood the school of thought that its easier to work when kids are in school. Apart from the cost and headache of wraparound/holiday care, I think its harder to find adequate care for older kids than younger ones.

I've no qualms about the great nursery or after school nanny for dd now she's only 5. But we plan to be home more when she's older (and in part is why we're working now) when it all gets a bit more complicated....

I too was managed out after having my first. I went to work at big4 and there is a lot of talk but the sexism is very real and hard to overcome. I left and went to my client into a middle management role. Small company of 40 with 4 women and I'm the only mother. Of the 36 something like 32 are fathers and only 5 have working wives.

Many of the women are highly educated and could work if they wanted to. They have decided to stay home because the barriers in the workplace are barriers they don't want to overcome. I get it. Their DHs get it which is why tone at the top is 'family first'.

Want2bSupermum yes, and a reason I ditched my career.

I didn't really want to fight that fight. It worked out better for us as a family to have me at home.

My OH works for a technical company. In a team of 16 - all are men.
Of the men that are fathers not one has a wife that works full time.

My mum was trapped in an emotionally abusive marriage and always encouraged me to have a career and have my own money.

My own view is that I don't want to depend on one salary. Even if you are in a happy marriage, you don't know if your DH will keep his job, or whether he could become ill. Things change. It's a good idea to keep as many options open as possible - if you can. And that's why I would always encourage mums to work, at least part-time.

I would have still been a working parent but I would have liked a longer maternity leave when I had DT’s - six months maximum was the norm then. I’ve been lucky to work for a supportive company with many opportunities but also the ability to set my hours so that I could collect DT’s from nursery/after school club. DH did the mornings.

Now DT’s are at Uni I’ve decided on an easier professional life and aim to drop to 4 days a week but keep the majority of my long standing clients. DH is the senior partner in a GP practice and is also going to drop down to a 4 day week so we can enjoy long weekends together.

I couldn’t be a SAHM, as much as I think it would be lovely to not have the stress of cramming everything in to my days off or worrying about childcare when one is poorly. My career means I have to work so many hours per year to be fit to practice, I’d never let it lapse due to working so hard to get it + it’s protection for me should anything go wrong. I’ve worked a mix of part and full time in my 5 years of parenting. I’m due no.3 soon and will be having 6 months off then working bank shifts for another 6 months around my OH and Mum before returning to a Work, hopefully in a different area of my career. I’m very lucky to have such a wide range of options really. I think keeping in work, even just a few hours a week is good for everyone and stops people losing identity as well as providing them with skills should they need them in the future

No, definitely not. I wouldn't have enjoyed that life

I think the losing identity is a fairly crucial factor for me among all of this and not one that has been discussed too much here. I’ve been lucky to take a years maternity and to return to work 3 days a week in my role. When my DD started school I increased to 4 days a week - although in school holidays I revert back to 3 which really helps. Although I can completely see the benefits to the family to have a parent at home it does seem to come at some personal cost. ( in the cases I know ). I know for me the world shrank over the course of my years maternity leave and although I don’t have a massively high powered job in a blue chip I work in an extremely interesting role in central London. When I was off I really missed the buzz of being in town, interaction with different types of people, the access to cafes and art galleries on my doorstep. Etc Don’t get me wrong, I’m not drinking cocktails every night but I do go out with my team every month to socialise. My income pays for quite a lot of the social things I do with my friends and DD & DH - the tickets to Hamilton and the Lion King, the concert tickets, a dinner out, my cleaner and my flights to Canada on holiday. My SAHM friends seemingly do nothing social for themselves. One has not been out with her DH on their own for 5 years. Obviously this could be a choice she could make irrespective of whether she worked but there is a pervading sense of martyrdom that permeates. That they can’t get their grey hair coloured , that they can’t buy themselves something frivolous to wear because everything must be sacrificed at the altar of being a good parent. There is nothing stimulating or interesting about people who adopt this stance. My final comment I guess is that everyday at my job I am challenged and pushed to problem solve, to find a way forward for my organisation. I can’t say that my experience at home provided anything as challenging. Doing the food shop, going to a baby class, hoovering - it was cosy, it was safe and it was soporific.

I was not a SAHM, needed to earn and pay the mortgage.

BUT even if money was no object I would have to work, even part time for some sort of stimulation.

Was bored off my tits on maternity leave.

SpiritedLondon - you know there are SAHMs who actually live in the middle of London, right? No we are not doing the martyr act - in fact we're rarely in the house during school hours and DH and I manage to get out just fine. No "loss of identity" as far as I can see.

Yes I did say it was in my experience- the SAHM of my acquaintance. I’m not even sure that they suffer from financial restraints and that’s the reason that they embrace martyrdom so readily - but they do. I’m sure if I lived in Central London and had access to a healthy bank balance I could find enough to entertain myself.

No loss of identity here- nor were my tits bored off.

My days and weeks were busy, buzzing off on some adventure, meeting friends, going on picnics, having friends around. I ran two local toddler groups, trained as a breastfeeding counsellor.

Stay at home mother- we didn't stay at home much, and even when we did- everyone needs quiet days- life was a hive of activity.
There were many other SAHMs in the village too, so playgroups were well attended, lots of community activities too.

I don't need a job to define who I am.

I am much more than a job.