About School and detention?

[Recallclock]

Prepared to be flamed.

Dd has sen and is according to schools own safeguarding team 'vulnerable'
Because of bullying and lack of options when we moved her her new school is out of Borough.

There has been a few times she has been kept back as a whole class detention because someone else wouldn't shut up talking and missed her connecting bus and got home very late leaving her waiting forty minutes alone at a bus stop and walking through the door at 6.30pm. (her school finished at 4.10pm but even keeping them back twenty minutes means she misses her commenting bus.)

I had a lot of involvement with the old senco who was brilliant and was in contact regularly but a new one has started and I have little involvement with her however I spoke to her on the advice of Mumsnet and asked for dd to be not kept back if she had not been involved due to her issues getting home and if she had to be given recall for herself if it could be done at lunch or if it had to be after school with notice so I could sort collection. She's never had individual recall.

I have just had a phone call now to say she is being kept back tonight as she hasn't done her homework. I'm not impressed she has not done her homework (she does have organisation issues as part of her sen) but she's not done it so fair enough.
I'm miles away with no car and can't get hold of my Dad to get her so my sen child will be on detention until 5pm and isn't likely to walk through the door until 7pm.
She also doesn't know the buses at other times so is going to be in a right state.

Aibu to have expected them to give a sen child 24 hours notice particularly when I have asked and they agreed or keep her in at lunch?

My apologies I didn’t realise the thread had moved off topic

It was Gove’s idea to do no-notice detentions.

I think it’s ridiculous. Why alienate and upset parents when we are trying to work with them? Gove thought that by incoveniencing parents it would make them take it more seriously. I disagree. Who cares when the child does the detention as long as it’s done. Of course they shouldn’t be sent off in the dark on their own. Honestly. You fix a detention with enough notice for the adults in that child’s life to make arrangements to safely collect him/her. And it should not depend on any SEN - it’s basic duty of care in my opinion.

But how many people on this thread have said that they WON'T allow their child to do after school detentions, rather than that they can't?

I have said I wouldn't allow my DD to do no notice detentions but that is on the assumption that by doing so would compromise other commitments (either ability to get home or pre-arranged appointments/clubs)

I am not saying my DD shouldn't get punished for her misbehaviour, just that there needs to be some flexibility with when she gets punished when the school are wanting my co-operation with keeping my child outside of school hours.

These aren't toddlers who don't have the capacity to understand a delayed punishment, so what is the urgency, especially if it is a minor infraction on the scale of misbehaviour? Yes some people will take the piss but honestly I can't understand why it is such a hardship for a detention to be served the following day rather than the same evening?

24hrs notice not only gives the parents the courtesy of being informed rather than just being dictated to but also gives them the ability to make arrangements for their child coming home late (bus/taxi fare, informing clubs/classes that their child won't be attending etc) or speak with the teacher to explain why they can't do the detention (eg a medical appointment) and to come up with an alternative arrangement to suit both the school and the parents.

Prior commitments are prior commitments.

I am not saying I would refuse to allow my child to do any detention, but you have so far failed to provide any actual reasoning as to why a detention must occur on the same day, when 24hrs notice would be beneficial on so many levels.

Until you can give any actual reason as to why such immediacy is imperative (and not just that "there's no law that says we can't") then I will continue to advocate for the school to give the parents the courtesy of 24hrs notice when they expect the parents to support the school in dictating how their child spends their time after the final school bell.

Of course it should be done safely, can you imagine the headlines if a child is given a same day detention, school buses gone and no way to reasonably get home and the child is attacked/lost or whatever. The school would get torn to shreds.

At my GSs school after school detentions are on a Friday night, not sure if that is because some people finish work early so easier to pick kids up or just because people get at least one days notice, if the earn a detention on a Friday then they do the detention the next week. It seems to work well and everyone knows where they stand.

My kids wouldn't have missed the orthodontist appointment for a detention. Terrible waste of NHS time when the detention could easily be done another time.

kinda enjoy school threads now just for the popping up of peng the voice of absolute no reason or compromise and the voice of maisy who is realistic and has very many lucky parents and pupils in her (?) care

My thoughts exactly!

melj1213
I can only speak for myself but I would generally say that if a child has a detention on a night which clashes with an after school hobby then tough, they miss the hobby.
But then again I tend to hold all my detentions on the same night each week and am relentlessly fair and consistent so most of the time (other than run ins with unsupportive people) parents are entirely on board.

I wonder whether what peng is referring to is when some parents won't accept or support a reasonable detention. E.g. last term I had to pass an issue to senior leadership because a parent had been horrendously rude to a colleague and then when i got involved started being aggressive and rude saying my child WON'T be doing a detention. You are breaking the law. I'll report the school to Ofsted. I'll tell ny DC to walk out and not turn up.. don't you DARE put them in isolation for missing a detention. How many times do i have to tell people in your place they will NOT. BE. DOING. A. DETENTION. So you put a note on their record and make it very clear that I am not consenting. I better not get a call from any of you lot again over bloody detentions.
I was a bit . So said 'I appreciate you feel that way but by law we don't require consent and you have chosen to send your child here. School policy is missing detentions means isolation. I will pass this matter to senior staff'.
Senior staff backed me (who was backing my colleague) 100%. The child did the detention.

In my experience those parents are a small minority, but they are awful to deal with. Most are pretty reasonable though if you're reasonable with them.

Totally agree.
Part of the issue you supported me on was when one of ds teachers appeared to be targeting him. He reactions got bigger and bigger and her number of witnesses larger and larger.
Ds has never been in trouble and what she was saying didn't match even HOY opinion if him.

In his case she set lunchtime detention but gave no details. Then told him he had 2 now for failure to turn up but again - have no details. She then rang me day after his missed first lunchtime to tell me as he'd missed his 2 lunchtimes he would have an after school.
This was where I put my foot down. I told school what had been happening with her and what ds had been saying. Referred them to how he was now making believe expected progress in the subject having previously been making higher than expected. Said he's do original lunchtime detention even though I disagreed with it for x, y and z reasons.
The teacher then rang me all annoyed and put out where I basically told her he has an EHCP, she has a duty to follow it - and she cannot punish a child for her failings despite her telling me "legally she doesn't need my permission to keep him in detention".

I don't even think the school felt she was in the right - after reporting all that had happened to HOY and conversations I'd had with teacher his response was "right, first things first we need to get him moved to a different teacher"

Maisy was fantastic at giving me advice. It's never easy challenging a schools decision whilst basically accusing their staff of "picking on" your child!

I can only speak for myself but I would generally say that if a child has a detention on a night which clashes with an after school hobby then tough, they miss the hobby.

Maisy I would generally agree with this and would support the school in holding the detention - provided I had prior notice.

If my DD misbehaved enough to earn a detention then I would support that, but I would appreciate the school giving me 24hr notice so that I can inform hobby clubs that she would not be there (so I don't get a call saying she didn't turn up and wondering where the hell she is) or so that I could tell them that it is not convenient (eg a hospital appointment) and come to an agreement as to the best alternative - break/lunch detention, in school isolation for the next lesson in that teacher's subject, detention on another night.

School/parent relationships are a two way street and a little flexibility as to when my child serves a punishment (as most parents are not against the punishment in and of itself, just the scheduling of it) is going to garner more parental support than a teacher being stubborn and insisting on a same day, no notice detention because they refuse to accept that on that specific day the child can't just stay behind for an hour, but would be able to the following day.

The incident you describe with a parent is awful - I used to teach primary school abroad so I thankfully never had the joys of dealing with detentions - but again, that is a totally different scenario as that parent was not willing to support their child doing a detention under any circumstance. I am willing to support my child doing detention, provided I am given the courtesy of information prior to the event.

melj1213
You seem really sensible. Most parents have your approach.

I only outlined that awful situation as perhaps where peng might be coming from with her 'but these are the rules' approach. I know sometimes i've been flamed on school threads for being a bit 'but these are the rules' at times.

I do agree that positive school/parent relationships are a 2 way thing and they aren't always easy to get right. I can think of a couple of parents who are so supportive of me now but in the early days were quite unsupportive, undermining, you can't tell my child off etc. It was relentless for a while and I have no doubt I probably wasn't their top teacher for a while but once they understood I am only picky about rules ajd standards because i care (and their child realised they'd get bored before i would ), the child's progress jumped and home did say 'fair play Mrs Pops' and were brilliant ever since. But it is a 2 way thing and it has to be built on mutual respect. and it helps if you have GCSE students who say you can get away with nagging and being sad because they know it's from a good place and you're not just on a power trip

As a teacher, i an always happy to move a detention and accommodate in the interest of safety. Parents are generally understanding and do get text reminders the day before a detention. Its a bit worrying that this member of staff made your DD stay, when it was such short notice and there was an obvious SEN issue. That said, I would make allowances for any pupil that could not safely get home!

I only outlined that awful situation as perhaps where peng might be coming from with her 'but these are the rules' approach

You are a lot more generous with the benefit of the doubt than most - Peng has a reputation for a hardline "these are the rules" approach regardless of what is said or the situation.

Nowhere on the thread has anyone said they wouldn't support detention at all, just that they wanted some flexibility/courtesy from the school when it comes to scheduling and reasonable adjustment. Whilst many people accept that schools can legally do what they want with regards to detention (within reason!) Peng seems incapable of accepting that just because something is legal and allowed doesn't make it the right option, especially when trying to foster home/school relationships.

melj1213
I try to be charitable. Or at least try to see where people are coming from.

People on this thread have been great. I do love a good school thread where a range of people give sensible and helpful advice to a poster other than rawwrrr be much fuming! Go to the head or Ofsted! They serve as lovely reminders that most folk (parents and teachers) are pretty decent folk

Although there is an agreement in place for lunchtime detention all I ever asked for was 24 hours notice to make safe arrangements.

' I think arranging safe collection of your child when they have been kept back under a school policy you signed up to, is your responsibility, not the school's.'

I don't get this comment. I have never been told that the school did no notice detentions, I have never been given information verbally or in writing along those lines.
My child has been in school for over 18 months and has never had detention so it's never come up.
It is only very recently that whole class detention has become an issue.

I would also point out that most people don't sign up for schools these days. You get given a school.

What I was actually told if it comes down to it that because they had a long day 9am to 4.10pm that homework wouldn't be given.

They do get small amounts after new teachers came in and leadership changed which I have never created a fuss about but actually as someone with a child who finds school extremely stressful and has a history of school refusal at her old school and has been unwell and going through a load of tests currently and usually very well behaved, am I annoyed that she came home and cried and vomited because she was so stressed about it and worried about going in today in case the teacher hasn't been told SLT sent her home then absolutely I am.

Ironically Ofsted are currently in Maisy
The school failed in every single area including safeguarding ironically.

But yes responses have been massively helpful with advice rather than raring me up further.